What if Jason of Pherae wasn't assassinated?

Monopolist

Jason of Pherae was essentially King of Thessaly, and showed signs of being a Philip around twelve years before Philip became the King of Macedonia. He had a mercenary army coupled with his Thessalian cavalry to make one of the most powerful armies in Greece. He showed interest in unifying the Greek cities, and talked of a Persian expedition. In the year 370 BC (one year after Leuctra, to put that in perspective) he began to mobilize his army and prepare to do... something. He was assassinated before he could do whatever it was he planned to do, and Thessaly soon fell apart without his leadership, and, later, would eventually go to Philip. So I guess the question is: what is the potential of Jason's Thessalian state to be like Philip's Macedonia (could he be Philip early), and what moves might Jason make, beginning in 370?

Things to keep in mind:
• Jason was a very close ally with Thebes. He even went so far as to name his daughter Thebe, after the city.
• He was also close with Timotheos of Athens, though he was still closer to Thebes.
• He was allied with the Macedonian King Amyntas III, and probably was with Amyntas’ successor, Alexander II.
• His mercenary army was around 6000 men.

Also, this bit by Xenophon might be of interest:

Xenophon said:
His generalship is of the highest quality—he is one who whether his methods are those of plain force, or working in the dark, or of seizing an unexpected advantage, very seldom fails to achieve his objects. He can use the night-time as well as the day time, and when he wants to move fast, he will put breakfast and dinner into one meal, so as not to interrupt his work. He will not think it right to rest until he has reached the point for which he set out and done all that had to be done. And he has trained his men to behave in the same way, although he knows how to gratify the feelings of his soldiers when they have won some success as the results of extra hard work. So all who follow him have learned this too—that one can have a good time also, if one works for it. Then, too, he is more self controlled than any man I know with regard to bodily pleasures. These never take up his time and prevent him from doing what has to be done.
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Gortian

Hellas united under the Tagus of Thessaly would be a unique idea. Jason had already smashed the Spartans at Leuctra as you said. Agesilaus and Sparta were effectively surrounded and neutered by Thebes and its new allies in the Peloponnese. It then began the steep decline it would never recover from. Athens was also a shadow of its former power through the now dead Delian League whose corpse continued to rot despite Athens attempts to prop it up.
Greece was under the hegemony of Thebes currently and the Boetian League, Thebes headed, was a shaky alliance at best. Sparta had already shown that a unified Hellenic power could invade Persia, though Agesilaus' invasion was not a great success, the march of the 10,000 showed how a hoplite army could defy Persian Power. Now that they had seen how fragile Persia could be with a fractuous Royal family power hungry rulers probably would not settle for Hellas alone.

Thessalian hegemony has a good chance of being more agreeable to Hellenics as Macedon was always held as northern barbarians posing as greeks and only accepted due to their military supremacy. Thessaly on the other hand was closer and more ingrained into Hellenic society.

My ancient history lecturer really liked Jason of Pherae for some reason and despised Philip II of Macedon. I just remember reading about him letting the last survivors of Leuctra flee giving a speech that the gods were fickle and some day it could be his own men fleeing or something to that effect, in comparison with Philip drowning the remnants of the Phocian army.
 

Monopolist

Gordius said:
Thessalian hegemony has a good chance of being more agreeable to Hellenics as Macedon was always held as northern barbarians posing as greeks and only accepted due to their military supremacy. Thessaly on the other hand was closer and more ingrained into Hellenic society.
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That is one point definitely worth noting in contrast to the Macedonians, if Jason does manage to unify Hellas like Philip did. His alliances and Thessalian culture in general might lead to him being a more popular hegemon than Philip and Alexander's Macedonia, or even Thebes or Sparta or Athens (none of which, of course, were very popular at their height).

It seems that any sort of Thessalian hegemony that might arise under Jason would be short-lasting beyond Jason himself though... does anyone know how old Jason was at his death?
 
Errnge

Errnge

I don't know much about the subject, but it sounds very interesting.

I think Persia was more stable at this time, however, so I'd think it would be harder to invade like the Macedonians did
 

cimon

Gordius said:
Hellas united under the Tagus of Thessaly would be a unique idea. Jason had already smashed the Spartans at Leuctra as you said. Agesilaus and Sparta were effectively surrounded and neutered by Thebes and its new allies in the Peloponnese. It then began the steep decline it would never recover from. Athens was also a shadow of its former power through the now dead Delian League whose corpse continued to rot despite Athens attempts to prop it up.
Greece was under the hegemony of Thebes currently and the Boetian League, Thebes headed, was a shaky alliance at best. Sparta had already shown that a unified Hellenic power could invade Persia, though Agesilaus' invasion was not a great success, the march of the 10,000 showed how a hoplite army could defy Persian Power. Now that they had seen how fragile Persia could be with a fractuous Royal family power hungry rulers probably would not settle for Hellas alone.



Thessalian hegemony has a good chance of being more agreeable to Hellenics as Macedon was always held as northern barbarians posing as greeks and only accepted due to their military supremacy. Thessaly on the other hand was closer and more ingrained into Hellenic society.

My ancient history lecturer really liked Jason of Pherae for some reason and despised Philip II of Macedon. I just remember reading about him letting the last survivors of Leuctra flee giving a speech that the gods were fickle and some day it could be his own men fleeing or something to that effect, in comparison with Philip drowning the remnants of the Phocian army.
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Gordius,
1)Jason did not defeat(ever) the Spartans at Leuctra; it was Epameinondas of Thebes who did it and started the Hegemony of Thebes.
2) Greeks never saw Macedonians as barbarians and they couldn't; this is a far fetched exaggeration;the Macedonians had applied for participation in the Olympic games to the strictest and toughest committee existing in Greece in 432 BC,The Amfictiones of Olympia with the argument of their descendancy from the Argives and that was accepted by the Argives themselves because irrefutable proof existed in the hands of the Argives.
The participation at the games was strictly allowed to Greeks only,and the
notion of "everyone who is not a Greek is a barbarian" is even reflected in the writings of Aristotle,therefore none could consider the Macedonians as barbarians; a little behind times maybe because of their institutions (as it is obvious in the letter-answer of Isocrates to Phillip) ie kingship,but nevertheless Greeks.
 

Gortian

Sorry Cimon, my mistake. Got muddled with my Xenophon. His record of the battle is completely unhelpful. Jason did say that after he argued with the Thebans about further punishing Sparta when he arrived in the aftermath.

However I seem to remember reading that Alexander was one of the first Macedonians allowed to compete iin the olympics due to his mothers line of descent from the Mollossian royals rather than his Macedonian heritage and Phillip II was always seen as an outsider in the Hellenistic power struggle, though it may be down to my lecturer having a rather open bias against him.
 
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cimon

Gordius said:
Sorry Cimon, my mistake. Got muddled with my Xenophon. His record of the battle is completely unhelpful. Jason did say that after he argued with the Thebans about further punishing Sparta when he arrived in the aftermath.

However I seem to remember reading that Alexander was one of the first Macedonians allowed to compete iin the olympics due to his mothers line of descent from the Mollossian royals rather than his Macedonian heritage and Phillip II was always seen as an outsider in the Hellenistic power struggle, though it may be down to my lecturer having a rather open bias against him.
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At this moment I don't remember ofhand who was king of Macedon in 432 BC but Phillip received in 356 BC three pieces of good knews:two of those three were 1) he had a son and 2) his horses had won the crown at Olympia.
 

Gortian

Fair enough Cimon, my rudimentary grasp of ancient Greek history is somewhat muddled by my faulty memory. But there did seem to be a feeling of elitism against the northern Greek kingdoms like Epirus and Macedon as sort of country hicks on the perifery of the Hellenistic world who did not deserve to rule over the City-states of the south.

This effect of elitism may somewhat still come to affect Jason, should he unite the region under his control. While many Greeks may have wondered what could have been had Jason become hegemon of Hellas rather than as Phillip eventually did after Jason had been murdered, chances are there would have been groups who railed against him with similar arguements used against Phillip of Macedon.

Should Jason dominate the region he could play propaganda to his favour. For instance, he may flatter the Athenians that he approves of democracy by telling them of his "election" to the position of Tagus of Thessaly, though it was only by having enough military might to get all 4 of the district leaders of Thessaly to vote for him that ensured his position.
 
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cimon

Monopolist said:
Jason of Pherae was essentially King of Thessaly, and showed signs of being a Philip around twelve years before Philip became the King of Macedonia. He had a mercenary army coupled with his Thessalian cavalry to make one of the most powerful armies in Greece. He showed interest in unifying the Greek cities, and talked of a Persian expedition. In the year 370 BC (one year after Leuctra, to put that in perspective) he began to mobilize his army and prepare to do... something. He was assassinated before he could do whatever it was he planned to do, and Thessaly soon fell apart without his leadership, and, later, would eventually go to Philip. So I guess the question is: what is the potential of Jason's Thessalian state to be like Philip's Macedonia (could he be Philip early), and what moves might Jason make, beginning in 370?

Things to keep in mind:
• Jason was a very close ally with Thebes. He even went so far as to name his daughter Thebe, after the city.
• He was also close with Timotheos of Athens, though he was still closer to Thebes.
• He was allied with the Macedonian King Amyntas III, and probably was with Amyntas’ successor, Alexander II.
• His mercenary army was around 6000 men.

Also, this bit by Xenophon might be of interest:
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Not that I dispute Xenophon (which I do),but in that quotation above I am not that certain he is describing Jason,since there is no evidence that Jason did anything to justify Xenophon's description of him,but that description evidently depicts Xenophon himself and there is ample evidence that Xenophon richly deserves that high praise if anyone reads "Cyrou Anabasis" one of the greatest feats of world military history.
If Jason made any move to materialise his plans he would have to face the greatest military mind of Greece(according to many,least of all Cicero and of course his admirer who imitated him at any given chance,Poplius Cornelius Scipio Africanus) Epameinondas.Anyway a year after Jason's death,his successor Alexander was defeated by Epameinondas close associate Pelopidas and Thebes was the hegemon of Greece and in its ascendant.
 

Monopolist

cimon said:
Not that I dispute Xenophon (which I do),but in that quotation above I am not that certain he is describing Jason,since there is no evidence that Jason did anything to justify Xenophon's description of him,but that description evidently depicts Xenophon himself and there is ample evidence that Xenophon richly deserves that high praise if anyone reads "Cyrou Anabasis" one of the greatest feats of world military history.
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You can check it if you want: Hellenika, 6.1.14-6.1.16. Speech of Polydamas of Pharsalus warning Sparta of Jason's power and his ambition. Your translation might vary in wording, of course, but that is the gist of it.

And I would assume the evidence that justifies Xenophon's description of him comes from not only being from the period and being familiar with the man's reputation during those times, but also from Jason's unification of Thessaly to make himself tagos, which would've been a difficult thing to do, and proving of his qualities.

If Jason made any move to materialise his plans he would have to face the greatest military mind of Greece(according to many,least of all Cicero and of course his admirer who imitated him at any given chance,Poplius Cornelius Scipio Africanus) Epameinondas.Anyway a year after Jason's death,his successor Alexander was defeated by Epameinondas close associate Pelopidas and Thebes was the hegemon of Greece and in its ascendant.
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Epaminondas was probably the greatest tactical mind the Greek poleis ever produced, I don't disagree with you. Leuctra was one of the greatest battles ever fought. But it seems to me that Jason is far superior to his son as a military mind; he'd provide more of a challenge to Epaminondas and Pelopidas than Alexander or even the Spartans did. And his cavalry is far superior than any that Thebes could put up, both in quantity and quality. So I wouldn't just say that Jason would get crushed by Epaminondas or Pelopidas.

And that is assuming that he and Thebes comes to blows... which, given the respect that Jason had for Thebes, is not a guarantee. Granted, it's hard to see Jason becoming in a position of power similar to Philip without warring with Thebes, but still, I think it should be pointed out.
 
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