What if the Spanish failed to colonize Luzon because the Tondo Dynasty survived their hostility with Brunei, the mountain tribes there were not conquered by the Spanish and without being given to the Spanish and without local mercenaries allying with the Spanish who are of Bruneian/Bornean descent the Spanish colonization will not happen, what will happen to the Spanish East Indies. Will Spain try to gain Mollucas in order to tap into the Spices again.
WI: A Spanish East Indies without Luzon
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
The Spaniards could just settle for Visayas and northern Mindanao, while Tondo could end up being conquered by Brunei, Malacca or even Japan.
I think Luzon/Selurong would remain backwater if the Tondo Dynasty survives I just wonder how would a backwater Kingdom fare in the present.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I was going to suggest that if we butterfly the Imjin War, then either Japan or Korea tries to have a go for Tondo. Of course, Tondo could also form an alliance with Malacca and/or Aceh against Brunei as well (this may work if the Turks in Aceh are present).
I think Korea or Japan having it as a vassal would be possible if they conquered Taiwan because they will have an ally in subjugating the hostile Taiwanese tribes in return for protection.
I think Melaka and Selurong/Tondo might be allies, I think if Melaka survived it would swallow Aceh and unite Sumatra..
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
If Nobunaga is the man in charge of Japan, then they might have a chance, and if Hideyoshi is killed early. If not, then there's always the Koreans who could vassalize Tondo, but Tondo/Selurong would definitely need a good deal of Asian cultural transmission if they are to avoid becoming colonized by the Spaniards. Another question: could Korea and Japan form some sort of a union similar to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and thereby bolster their efforts in vassalizing Selurong?
They needed to be recognized by China in order for powers like Brunei to stop trying to make them as one of their domains, I think being a vassal of Korea or Japan is a good option to them, I think both options will transform their culture.
If Selurong was attacked by the Spanish they would lose the area south of Pasig river and be always hostile as the Igorots in OTL were, I think a Pasig river-Pulilan(Laguna de Bay)-Mahabe Pagotan(Sierra-Madre) line would make a good border and also Selurong and a shift of the powerbase to the Cordilleras and they would be employing Ming loyalists as mercenaries against the Spanish and I imagine the Spanish would be resettling Southern Luzon with Visayans just like what they are doing in Mindanao.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Korea and Japan could also compete against each other for influencing Selurong's cultural makeup, though the Koreans could help Selurong with the economical sector while the Japanese could modernize Selurong's military. Korean and Japanese settlers might actually settle in Selurong. Actually, this is the idea that I was going to consider for my rewrite of Ivangorod Prosperous: a fractured Philippine Islands while Spain holds southern Luzon, Visayas and northern Mindanao while the rest of Mindanao could be pawned off to the Dutch, and maybe down the road the Russians may take Selurong, but this is just an idea that I have. I might actually need your help for this section in a possible Ivangorod 2.0 if I can.
That would be cool in the second version of my tl terraces and pagodas I had Selurong recognized by the Chinese but still ended up defeated by the Bruneians but the Bruneians can only take Southern Luzon, I have not written a part after 1500 because I am expanding it's universe right now.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Selurong may need to control Taiwan for this to work, since they might be denied the lands of southern Luzon. Perhaps a Selurong-based Malay language that can use Korean Hangul would work, although later down the road, they may need to use a modified Latin or Cyrillic script. Mongolia, despite not being a part of the Russian Empire, did use a modified Cyrillic script.
I think Selurong could conquer Taiwan but I think being recognized by China is more important because it will open it up to trade and cultural influences from China such as Confucianism.
I think you could use the POD of Gambang defeating Bolkiah in Ivanogrod Prosperous but I don't know the exact date but aproximately it occured during the late 15th century or have a great person make a change in Selurong like I did in Terraces and Pagodas II.
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MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I need the year when Gambang defeated the Bolkiahs, and if the Ming could recognize Selurong, then maybe Korea and Japan could follow suit.I might also aim for a Korean conquest of Manchuria, although I'm not sure if that is plausible.
It was during the reign of Ragam Bolkiah I don't know the date but I think it would be better to prevent the marriage of Ragam Bolkiah to Laila Mecanai, the daughter of Sulu Sultan Amir Ul-Ombra, you could have her married to another man, I think a ruler of Cebu would be a good marriage prospect for her and perhaps the ancestors of the current Sulu Sultans would not even claim the throne of Sulu and Cebu and Sulu would be united, so the POD would be 1485 when Ragam Bolkiah became the Sultan of Brunei and later he does not marry Laila Mecanai because she is betrothed and married to a King of another Kingdom so Ragam Bolkiah would not be interested in the City of Manila and does not attack it and war against Gambang.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Wow, in that case I might as well use a PoD of having Lithuania unite Russia then.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
OK, on the other hand, what would the benefits of a closer cultural link between Korea, Japan and Selurong?
In that case have Jadwiga marry a Masovian Piast or force her to marry Sigismund of Luxembourg.
I think the Ryukyuans will be needed to be subjugated before Japan expands to South East Asia.
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MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Ryukyu would be pawned off to Japan anyways while Taiwan would be pawned off to Selurong. On the other hand, could there be a Mughal-esque situation in East Asia where the Mongols get a second chance to create their empire from the ashes of the Northern Yuan? They could control Korea and Japan though.
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MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Also, what if the Spaniards fail to Catholicize Luzon? The reason why they were able to do so was because a friar brought back a Kampampangan boy who was able to recite the Catholic praer to Philip II.