CH: 5 or Less in Europe by 2000 A.D.

[Killer300]

Specifically, with a POD as early as you want, here is my challenge. Have 5 or fewer countries in all of Europe by 2000 A.D. This includes the British Isles, and Scandinavia. Yes, I realize this is rather unlikely, however I'm giving you a VERY long time to accomplish it in. Unlike in Post 1900 history, we can go back to when states aren't fully established. Hopefully, you can make it where things stabilize to where there are 5 countries or less in all of Europe.

Also, yes, a basic TL would be appreciated if possible. I'm seeing how plausible this is for a setting I'm thinking of right now, so that would be very helpful.

[von Adler]

Hard. Very hard.

Britain and Ireland.
Scandinavia
Ottoman Empire
France-Iberia-Italy joined under a Bourbon King.
Austria-Hungary, with Switzerland attached as an autonomous region in customs, currency and foreign policy union with Austria, with the Austrian monarch elected as "protector of the confederation" or similar.
Germany
Russian Empire.

That is the best I can do, and that is 7, not 5.

[Xhavnak]

Perhaps the empire of Cnut surviving to absorb the entire British Isles and Scandanavia ? That would solve most of northern europe and probably be strong enough together to survive. If they survive then perhaps a more Western based Russia including Lithuania could absorb the baltic states and Ukraine and possibly Poland.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Roman Empire with Ireland and Scotland as vassal areas.
Avar/Bulgar Khaganate encompassing much of central Europe and Ukraine (all Slavic areas, essentially).
Couple of Germano-Norse states.

[Killer300]

Originally Posted by von Adler

Hard. Very hard.

Britain and Ireland.
Scandinavia
Ottoman Empire
France-Iberia-Italy joined under a Bourbon King.
Austria-Hungary, with Switzerland attached as an autonomous region in customs, currency and foreign policy union with Austria, with the Austrian monarch elected as "protector of the confederation" or similar.
Germany
Russian Empire.

That is the best I can do, and that is 7, not 5.

Why can't Germany absorb Austria, along with its empire in that scenario? Pair that with the Russian Empire and Germania absorbing the Ottomon Empire land in Europe, and you've got it down to five.

[pa_dutch]

1. Latin-speaking state, including Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, the UK, Ireland, and parts of Switzerland and Belgium, emerging from the western half of the Roman Empire

2. Greek-speaking state, including Turkey, Greece, the Balkans, Romania, and Hungary, emerging from the eastern half of the Roman Empire

3. Germanic-speaking state, including Germany, the Benelux countries, parts of Switzerland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, much of Poland, the Baltics, Scandinavia, and Finland (basically making the Baltic Sea its "lake" much like the Mediterranean was Rome's)

4. Large eastern state filling the void of Russia (and Belarus and Ukraine), perhaps Scythian-speaking, Turkic-speaking, or (less likely and also less interesting) Slavic-speaking.

There, that's four. For a fifth, perhaps Scandinavia could be split from mainland Germania, or the British Isles from Western Rome, or Italy from a surviving "Gallic Empire".

[Elfwine]

How are you getting #1 to hold together?

Or #3?

Heck, how is #2 holding Hungary?

That's the problem. Most of these require holding things together in areas that had immense difficulty holding even the OTL polities in the areas in question (Spain - Portugal being a break off from the kingdom of Leon, after all - the Kingdom of Germany, the union of the three Scandinavian kingdoms, etc.) - how is making even bigger states going to make it easier to deal with what tore those apart?

I'm sure you could reduce the number of states in Europe fairly easily, but five or even ten means that all the blobs work without any problems causing fragmentation anywhere - and that things like the Dutch revolt are inevitably crushed.

And in the East (aka the area exposed to those coming in from the steppes), that nothing is ever overrun with a state strong enough to maintain its independence but not strong enough to replace an old blob.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

How are you getting #1 to hold together?

...

Heck, how is #2 holding Hungary?

Have you never seen a map of the Roman Empire?

Look around - There are plenty of well-written timelines about surviving Roman Empires, Byzantine Empires, and Ottoman Empires that hold vast swaths of territory. In some of them, Rome even manages to expand. My division isn't even proposing as large a large state as many of them do - I even break Rome in half. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for a little map challenge.

[kasumigenx]

1.MittelEuropa: Poland, Bohemia, Austria, Hungary, Serbia and Croatia

The Habsburgs wanted to establish this state and they have the sufficient claims to make this state, have them succeed in doing this.

2.Holy Roman Empire

Centralized by the Habsburgs and annexes Switzerland.

3.Latin union
Under the Bourbons or Valois.

4. Kalmar Empire
Includes Pomerania, Pomerelia, Samogitia, Livonia,Estonia, Britain, Ireland and Courland.

5.Russia
In personal union with Lithuania and Byzantine Empire.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by pa_dutch

Have you never seen a map of the Roman Empire?

Yes, I have. And I have also seen that it failed to survive until 2000 AD.

Look around - There are plenty of well-written timelines about surviving Roman Empires, Byzantine Empires, and Ottoman Empires that hold vast swaths of territory. In some of them, Rome even manages to expand. My division isn't even proposing as large a large state as many of them do - I even break Rome in half. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for a little map challenge.

No one is asking you to reinvent the wheel, and "there are plenty of well written timelines out there where different empires hold vast amounts of territory" is not really an answer for how "Germanic speaking blob" for instance is not just a lazy lumping together of a bunch of territories just for the satisfaction of answering "a little map challenge" without regards to whether or not such a state could survive or even form in the first place.

[Delvestius]

Originally Posted by pa_dutch

Have you never seen a map of the Roman Empire?

Look around - There are plenty of well-written timelines about surviving Roman Empires, Byzantine Empires, and Ottoman Empires that hold vast swaths of territory. In some of them, Rome even manages to expand. My division isn't even proposing as large a large state as many of them do - I even break Rome in half. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for a little map challenge.

No empire can survive for that long. That goes for a language as well, which I assume to be one of the only things holding such a state together...

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

]

3.Latin union
Under the Bourbons or Valois.

What is this "Latin Union"?

Originally Posted by Delvestius

No empire can survive for that long. That goes for a language as well, which I assume to be one of the only things holding such a state together...

I suppose you could get a surviving empire of some sort for the ERE (for instance), but not anything like this - all empires rise and fall as circumstances favor them or not, and putting everything back together again has a Humpty-Dumpty like quality to it.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Delvestius

No empire can survive for that long. That goes for a language as well, which I assume to be one of the only things holding such a state together...

China begs to differ.

[Last of the Stuarts]

How about:

1) Denmark - covers modern day Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, UK, Eire.

2) Carolingian Empire - (based on Charlemagne's empire) covering Northern Spain, France, Northern Italy, the Low Countries, Western Germany, Switerland, Western Austria.

3) Greater Poland / Lithuania - covering the rest of eastern europe.

4) Moors - Spain, (North Africa), (Turkey) , Greece et al.

5) Papal States - Southern Italy.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

What is this "Latin Union"?

France+Spain+Sicily+Naples+Portugal

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

France+Spain+Sicily+Naples+Portugal

Assuming we ignore places like Andorra, this leaves:

England (& Wales), Scotland, Ireland, the Papal States, and the Ottoman Empire (including vassals).

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Assuming we ignore places like Andorra, this leaves:

England (& Wales), Scotland, Ireland, the Papal States, and the Ottoman Empire (including vassals).

Edited the post, The Papal States are under the rule of HRE, Britain under Kalmar and the Byzantines and Lithuania are under russia so no Ottomans in Europe.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

Edited the post, The Papal States are under the rule of HRE, Britain under Kalmar and the Byzantines and Lithuania are under russia

Blobs for the blob god.

[Asharella]

1) Swedish Empire continues encompassing current Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Brandenburg-Prussia, the Baltics, Western Poland, Iceland and Greenland.

2) United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland continues, encompassing all of British Isles and Ireland. Overseas empire includes Arabia.

3) Napoleonic Empire continues, uniting France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, Holland, western German principalities, parts of Switzerland and the small states between them. Overseas empire includes North Africa and Syria.

4) Austrio-Hungary Empire thrives and takes over the Ottoman Empire, encompassing all of the Balkans, the western half of Asia Minor, Rumania, Eastern Switzerland, Bavaria, Bohemia and Slovakia.

5) Czarist Russian Empire continues and includes Armenia and Kurdish parts of Ottoman Empire.

[Hrvatskiwi]

First of all, I'd like to bring it to everyone's attention that the OP says "by" 2000, which means the goal has to be achieved before 2000. Not that it has to be like that in 2000.

Anyways, my initial, but not well fleshed out ideas:

-Charlemagne's empire remains united, expands (I know this is difficult) into Iberia, Italy and Bohemia

-Byzantine Empire defeats and conquers Hungarians.

-Cnut's Empire controls British Isles, Scandinavia and Baltic states.

-Larger Poland (about the size of Poland-Lithuania)

-large Russian polity. (probably loose confederation, including lots of non-Slavic tribes, making it barely recognisable as 'Russia')