What if the Persians conquered Greece?

[nlspeed]

So this is the post that's being considered to be bigotic?

Originally Posted by Elfwine

I don't mind the argument that OTL's circumstances were how we got OTL's philosophers - but I mind the idea that Persia is going to ruin Greece, which is why the rest is going on, at least as far as I'm concerned - westerners (OTL "Europeans", but that term may not exist in this world) buying into the Greek view of themselves is one of the things I'm rather glad won't happen in TTL.

The Greeks didn't just give us the word hypocrite, they gave us a stunning display of it.

He's saying that, while OTL leads to OTL results, a Greece conquered by Persia will lead to slightly different, but generally similar results. Minor butterflies.

Then, I think (but I'm a bit confused on that) he says that we need to stop looking at Greece as the beacon of civilisation - and he's happy that that (the wishy washy school book version of Greece) wn't exist in this timeline. And, looking at Sparta, taking a closer look at Athens... He has a point. Many people believe the school book version. Which is just wrong beond the very basics.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

So this is the post that's being considered to be bigotic?

He's saying that, while OTL lead to OTL results, a Greece conquered by Persia will lead to slightly different, but generally similar results. Minor butterflies.

Then, I think (but I'm a bit confused on that) he says that we need to stop looking at Greece as the beacon of civilisation - and he's happy that that (the wishy washy school book version of Greece) wn't exist in this timeline. And, looking at Sparta, taking a closer look at Athens... He has a point. Many people believe the school book version. Which is just wrong beond the very basics.

If he said that ITTL the perception of greek history would have been different, it would have been okay.
When he says he *likes* what happens ITTL (a TL which sees greece violently submitted by persians) and calls the submitted people "hypocrites" obviously implyng that they deserved to be conquered, things are different.
As i said, if i stated the same about chinese, i would have been kicked.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Esopo

If you cant see how ridicolous is your definition of the persian empire as the best thing happened to the world is, its your problem.

I never said that the Persian Empire was the best thing to happen to the world.

Not even close.

Nlspeed: Thank you, if you want to try explaining my position to Esopo further, feel free - will correct anything you're misinterpreting.

But yes, I think that we need to stop seeing Greece as the Beacon of Civilization and - as relates to alt-history - The Ancient Greeks may have been no worse than their neighbors, but their attitudes towards foreigners was parochial at best and outright assholish at worst.

Europe adopting that and applying it worldwide is a bigger tragedy than Athens not being able to have an empire.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

I never said that the Persian Empire was the best thing to happen to the world.

Not even close.

Yes, as you didnt say that for the ottoman empire. Still the description that you and others make of these empires are ridicolously impartial.
Baiscally you talk of that time in these terms: persians=englightened, tolerant, good and greeks=nazis, barbaric, hypocrites.
Even if the persians were the ones who wages three conquest wars against the greeks and were (thankfully) kicked.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Europe adopting that and applying it worldwide is a bigger tragedy than Athens not being able to have an empire.

and here you just stated you would have prefered greece being submitted by the persians. Good to know

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Esopo

and here you just stated you would have prefered greece being submitted by the persians. Good to know

The fuck? No he didnt, he said that he didnt like the fact that later groups copied Athens racialist bullshit. Nothing about wanting them conquered. And you really are ignoring the fact that no one is saying that Persia was perfect, just that the way their government ran things and operated was better than Greece. Its not the same thing.

And lets be entirely honest here, hes not lying in what he says about the persian empire. It really was like that, it was genuinely one of the most enlightened states of its era with surprising respect for the rights of minorities and a kind of proto federalism going on. Thats fairly accurate, on the other hand the Greek city states pioneered fun ideas like orientalist racism, proto fascism, and a rigid belief in their own superiority to the point of madness.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

The fuck? No he didnt, he said that he didnt like the fact that later groups copied Athens racialist bullshit. Nothing about wanting them conquered.

I suppose it is possible to construe saying that preferring this timeline for that fact means being pro-conquest.

But by that logic, being in favor of a timeline without Prussia is being anti-German.

[nlspeed]

Yeah...

He'd prefer it if people wouldn't see ancient Greece as the beacon of civilisation and all that.

In this timeline, that would be accomplished.

He'd like that single aspect of this timeline.

I suppose that, if a Persian conquest of Greece results in that aspect, and that aspect only, he'd like a Persian invasion of Greece.

If, however, other things change, besides how we would view Greece (and obviously they will), then you can't blindly assume he'd like a Persian conquest of Greece.

But even if he did, so what? So we're now racist monsters for, say, liking Carthage to conquer Rome? Sheez, this is all a thought experiment, so to say, can't we prefer one over the other?

He doesn't regard Greece as ancient Nazis. He regards them as they were, which is not ancient Nazis, but also not the single source of civilisation.

And what eliphas says really is true. That isn't even argueable in my opinion...?

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

Yeah...

He'd prefer it if people wouldn't see ancient Greece as the beacon of civilisation and all that.

In this timeline, that would be accomplished.

He'd like that single aspect of this timeline.

I suppose that, if a Persian conquest of Greece results in that aspect, and that aspect only, he'd like a Persian invasion of Greece.

If, however, other things change, besides how we would view Greece (and obviously they will), then you can't blindly assume he'd like a Persian conquest of Greece.

But even if he did, so what? So we're now racist monsters for, say, liking Carthage to conquer Rome? Sheez, this is all a thought experiment, so to say, can't we prefer one over the other?

He doesn't regard Greece as ancient Nazis. He regards them as they were, which is not ancient Nazis, but also not the single source of civilisation.

And what eliphas says really is true. That isn't even argueable in my opinion...?

No, your are wrong. He said that the "bad" thing happening ITTL would be "athens not having an empire" (hinting that being submitted would be a good thing even for the greeks) and that it would be a good exchange for the world to have greece submitted but persia regarded as the beacon of civilization.
If i said the same thing about the chinese i would have been banned.
But double standards are okay on this site.

And yes, if you state that "russia annexing "hypocrite" germans would be good for the world because germans would lose their racism against russians" you are bigot against germans.

Basically, all the greece (or classical world) hate on this site is clearly showed in this thread. Not only showing contempt and insulting a whole civilization (since im here i heard the most ridicolous insults toward greeks and romans), but even wishing that they were conquered, and hinting that the conquest would have been better even for them (poor them, unable to live whitout the enlightened middle eastern rule...just like the 1400's balkans, right?).
Sickening.

[nlspeed]

Eh, what...

I'm on an iPad, so, could you please link (for context) me to the posts where he said so.

And no, I disagree. If I want Nazi Germany to be conquered, I'm a bigot against Nazis. If I don't want it to be conquered, I'm a bigot against pretty much half of the world. Therefore, in my opinion, this is just plain stupid.

'All the hate'... Ok, link me to a few of these 'hate topics'.

Would you disagree with eliphas aforementioned post? Argue, please. What he is saying is true. Hate is 'Any and all Greek people are inferior scum better off assimilated, with their culture and all wiped out.'

[Elfwine]

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...8&postcount=83

" But yes, I think that we need to stop seeing Greece as the Beacon of Civilization and - as relates to alt-history - The Ancient Greeks may have been no worse than their neighbors, but their attitudes towards foreigners was parochial at best and outright assholish at worst. Europe adopting that and applying it worldwide is a bigger tragedy than Athens not being able to have an empire."

The post I think is the basis for his comment.

If "basis" is the right word here.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

Eh, what...



And no, I disagree. If I want Nazi Germany to be conquered, I'm a bigot against Nazis. If I don't want it to be conquered, I'm a bigot against pretty much half of the world. Therefore, in my opinion, this is just plain stupid.

I didnt say "nazi germany". And anyway, one thing is to be defeated, one thing is to be conquered ans submitted for centuries.

Would you disagree with eliphas aforementioned post? Argue, please. What he is saying is true. Hate is 'Any and all Greek people are inferior scum better off assimilated, with their culture and all wiped out.'

Which is basically what they hinted, using a subtler way.
And yes, i disagree with eliphas. Their description of the persian empire is ridicolously flawed.

[nlspeed]

So... Esopo is saying that Europe was right in regarding Asians and Africans as inferior beings that ought to loyally serve the master European race?

Because that is what I think the bolded part of Elfwine's post is saying is a bad thing (silly sentence). And Esopo is argueing against that?

I'm probably misunderstanding something here...

Edit: Well, argue! Show us why you are right and eliphas is wrong. What is flawed of his post?

Ok, so replace conquered with defeated. It seems to me to be what you are implying. How am I a Roman hating asshole if I'd like Carthage to win? I like both...?

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

So... Esopo is saying that Europe was right in regarding Asians and Africans as inferior beings that ought to loyally serve the master European race?

Because that is what I think the bolded part of Elfwine's post is saying is a bad thing (silly sentence). And Esopo is argueing against that?

No he didnt say that.
I'm probably misunderstanding something here...

Edit: Well, argue! Show us why you are right and eliphas is wrong. What is flawed of his post?

Ok, so replace conquered with defeated. It seems to me to be what you are implying. How am I a Roman hating asshole if I'd like Carthage to win? I like both...?

I just wanna ask you one thing: if i said id like a TL which has chinese being submitted and annexed from the europeans because it would delete their racism and arrogance towards us, would it be bigot?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

So... Esopo is saying that Europe was right in regarding Asians and Africans as inferior beings that ought to loyally serve the master European race?

Because that is what I think the bolded part of Elfwine's post is saying is a bad thing (silly sentence). And Esopo is argueing against that?

Eeyup. On what I'm saying, at least. I make no claim to understanding him at this point.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Eeyup. On what I'm saying, at least. I make no claim to understanding him at this point.

So have i to suppose that you are racist against europeans because you dont like to see chinese's bigotry against them eradicated by centuries of european rule of china?

[nlspeed]

Exactly my point. There are two choices and both would make you a bigot. Therefore, none would.

But your comparison is invalid anyway; Elfwine isn't saying that Greece must be erased from all history, he's saying the view of Greece most people currently have is wrong.

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

Exactly my point. There are two choices and both would make you a bigot. Therefore, none would.


But your comparison is invalid anyway; Elfwine isn't saying that Greece must be erased from all history, he's saying the view of Greece most people currently have is wrong.

I didnt say china must be erased from all history, im sayng that since chinese's view of the world is wrong, it would have been better for the world to have china ruled by europeans for centuries

[nlspeed]

Ok.

The Chinese world view is wrong, it would have been better for the world had said view not existed.

The way we view Greece is wrong, it would have been better for the world had said view not existed.

See the difference?

[Esopo]

Originally Posted by nlspeed

Ok.

The Chinese world view is wrong, it would have been better for the world had said view not existed.

The way we view Greece is wrong, it would have been better for the world had said view not existed.

See the difference?

So would you like a TL where the chinese are ruled by europeans for centuries so that they forget their smug?