Save the languages!

ShlomoLen · Jul 12, 2012

I'd like a timeline, where these languages are still spoken today, by the general populace of their respective country:
- Dalmatian spoken by the majority of the population of Dalmatia, not Italian or Croatian
- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France
- Irish spoken by the majority in Ireland, not English (still make Yola survive never the less)
- Scottish Gaelic spoken by the majority in the Scottish Highlands, not English
- Scots spoken by the majority in the Scottish Lowlands, not English
- Welsh spoken by the majority in Wales, not English
- Cornish spoken by the majority in Cornwall, not English
- Romansch spoken by the majority of the people in Switzerland, not German, French or Italian
- Sicilian spoken by majority in Sicily, not Standard Italian
- Along with Sicilian, make other regional Italian dialects survive, like Neapolitan, Venetian, Corsican, Sardinian
- Make Low German the langauge of the majority in Northern Germany instead of Standard High German
- Make Austro-Bavarian the language of the majority in Austria and Bavaria instead of Standard High German

Also:
- please try NOT to butterfly the more important historical events (like Italian unification, German unification, European colonization of the Americas, etc.) if possible... But only if possible.

False Dmitri · Jul 12, 2012

There is so much going on there, that in order to get a Europe like this, either:

You can have a giant timeline with very big butterflies in which this linguistic situation is a side effect, but which otherwise is not at all the Europe we know.
You can create a fictional Europe that is not strict alternate history, doesn't have a true PoD, ignores the butterfly effect. etc. I'll direct you to Ill Bethisad, a personal favorite, a constructed world that has a linguistic situation not unlike the one you described, but which is not alternate history at all.

kasumigenx · Jul 12, 2012

ShlomoLen said:
I'd like a timeline, where these languages are still spoken today, by the general populace of their respective country:
- Dalmatian spoken by the majority of the population of Dalmatia, not Italian or Croatian
- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France
- Irish spoken by the majority in Ireland, not English (still make Yola survive never the less)
- Scottish Gaelic spoken by the majority in the Scottish Highlands, not English
- Scots spoken by the majority in the Scottish Lowlands, not English
- Welsh spoken by the majority in Wales, not English
- Cornish spoken by the majority in Cornwall, not English
- Romansch spoken by the majority of the people in Switzerland, not German, French or Italian
- Sicilian spoken by majority in Sicily, not Standard Italian
- Along with Sicilian, make other regional Italian dialects survive, like Neapolitan, Venetian, Corsican, Sardinian
- Make Low German the langauge of the majority in Northern Germany instead of Standard High German
- Make Austro-Bavarian the language of the majority in Austria and Bavaria instead of Standard High German

Also:
- please try NOT to butterfly the more important historical events (like Italian unification, German unification, European colonization of the Americas, etc.) if possible... But only if possible.

French Switzerland used to speak Arpitan actually...

ShlomoLen · Jul 12, 2012

kasumigenx said:
French Switzerland used to speak Arpitan actually...

Arpitan = Franco-Provençal.
So, I think I already covered that one

ShlomoLen said:
- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France

mikegold · Jul 12, 2012

ShlomoLen said:
I'd like a timeline, where these languages are still spoken today, by the general populace of their respective country:
- Dalmatian spoken by the majority of the population of Dalmatia, not Italian or Croatian
- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France
- Irish spoken by the majority in Ireland, not English (still make Yola survive never the less)
- Scottish Gaelic spoken by the majority in the Scottish Highlands, not English
- Scots spoken by the majority in the Scottish Lowlands, not English
- Welsh spoken by the majority in Wales, not English
- Cornish spoken by the majority in Cornwall, not English
- Romansch spoken by the majority of the people in Switzerland, not German, French or Italian
- Sicilian spoken by majority in Sicily, not Standard Italian
- Along with Sicilian, make other regional Italian dialects survive, like Neapolitan, Venetian, Corsican, Sardinian
- Make Low German the langauge of the majority in Northern Germany instead of Standard High German
- Make Austro-Bavarian the language of the majority in Austria and Bavaria instead of Standard High German

Also:
- please try NOT to butterfly the more important historical events (like Italian unification, German unification, European colonization of the Americas, etc.) if possible... But only if possible.

Dalmatian probably requires a really early POD, Dark Ages - maybe no Slavic invasion in the area, for some reason?

The French one requires the France remain fractured, or at least less centralized.

All the British Isles ones require a smaller, weaker England. Actually, English as we know it need not exist according to your POD...

Keeping Italy and Germany separate satisfies the remaining prongs.

Romansch is the wierd one... was it ever even close to a majority in Switzerland? In Graubunden (Grischun), maybe, but all of Switzerland?

You could keep a Romance language dominant in Helvetia, but it wouldn't be anything you would identify as Romansch.

Most of your goals would be met by a more divided Western and Central Europe.

Alex Richards · Jul 12, 2012

Romansch was never big outside of Graubunden, so if you have a Napoleonic Wars that goes worse for Switzerland, with Geneva, Jura etc. remaining with France, independent Valais and Neuchatel, perhaps have Brune's partition plan go through and you might be able to either spin Graubunden off or see Romansch encouraged as a national language to increase differences between the three states.

LSCatilina · Jul 12, 2012

- Dalmatian spoken by the majority of the population of Dalmatia, not Italian or Croatian

It wasn't spoken by the majority of the population in Dalmatia, even if by dalmatia you mean "adriatic coast". It was the language of elites mainly.

Now it could survive without the apparition of Croatia. Butterflying Croat migration would help.

Thereforme more romance speakers. Maybe keep more independent dalmatian city states independent of both Venice and Byzantium (maybe a more important war between Carolingians and Byzantium ending with Torcello in frankish hands for Venice).

- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France

Since when Provencal and Gallo are languages?

For keeping them as official languages, you'll need a change during enlightement mentality. French was viewed as the language of the reason and therefore the other languages didn't worth to be used by elite.

Maybe having a sucessful noble Fronde and (without having federalism) more autonomous provinces (maybe the United Provinces of Languedoc could be taken as an exemple?) using local languages would help.

But it would be a situation of bilinguism, not monolinguism. Something Spain-way.

English-related

Without Franco-Norman conquest of Britain, England would be less eager and less quick to invade Ireland or Scotland periodically and ultimatly to search to conquer them.

Having the Danes being sucessful at instauring a kingdom in England separate from southern part of the island would certainly be helping as well.

- Romansch spoken by the majority of the people in Switzerland, not German, French or Italian

Unlikely. Retho-Roman languages traditional aera never took all Switzerland. You could have more Retho-roman, but it would be more directed towards OTL Austria/Slovenia than Switzerland.

- Sicilian spoken by majority in Sicily, not Standard Italian
- Along with Sicilian, make other regional Italian dialects survive, like Neapolitan, Venetian, Corsican, Sardinian

I don't get it. These dialects survived pretty well up to nowadays. What do you mean : having Standard Italian not develloping? But you'll end nevertheless with a standard Italian language just using different proportion of elaboration (mainly based on XVII Romano-Umbrian rather than XV Toscan)

- please try NOT to butterfly the more important historical events (like Italian unification, German unification, European colonization of the Americas, etc.) if possible... But only if possible.

Impossible. History of languages is totally related to all aspects of History.

Both in the dialectal process and the elaborative part, it's about it : languages doesn't develop randomly.

LSCatilina · Jul 12, 2012

ShlomoLen said:
Arpitan = Franco-Provençal.
So, I think I already covered that one

Francoprovencal (and NOT Franco-Provencal) =/= Provencal.

Francoprovencal (and NOT Arpitan, that appeared in the 70's for political reasons) is a language (or a super-dialectal ensemble of french) located between Massif Central and Alps, and ending in the north of Dauphiné/Delfinat

Provencal is a dialect of Occitan, located in the coast between Rhone/Rose and Alps and ending up to Durance/Duranca river upper part.

Marc Pasquin · Jul 12, 2012

ShlomoLen said:
I'd like a timeline, where these languages are still spoken today, by the general populace of their respective country:
- Dalmatian spoken by the majority of the population of Dalmatia, not Italian or Croatian
- Occitan, Provencal, Catalan, Gallo, Breton, etc. surviving in France
- Irish spoken by the majority in Ireland, not English (still make Yola survive never the less)
- Scottish Gaelic spoken by the majority in the Scottish Highlands, not English
- Scots spoken by the majority in the Scottish Lowlands, not English
- Welsh spoken by the majority in Wales, not English
- Cornish spoken by the majority in Cornwall, not English
- Romansch spoken by the majority of the people in Switzerland, not German, French or Italian
- Sicilian spoken by majority in Sicily, not Standard Italian
- Along with Sicilian, make other regional Italian dialects survive, like Neapolitan, Venetian, Corsican, Sardinian
- Make Low German the langauge of the majority in Northern Germany instead of Standard High German
- Make Austro-Bavarian the language of the majority in Austria and Bavaria instead of Standard High German

Also:
- please try NOT to butterfly the more important historical events (like Italian unification, German unification, European colonization of the Americas, etc.) if possible... But only if possible.

Just take Ill Bethisad and change a few bits.

ShlomoLen · Jul 12, 2012

Marc Pasquin said:
Just take Ill Bethisad and change a few bits.

As you wish

God-Eater of the Marshes · Jul 12, 2012

LSCatilina said:
Unlikely. Retho-Roman languages traditional aera never took all Switzerland. You could have more Retho-roman, but it would be more directed towards OTL Austria/Slovenia than Switzerland.

R%C3%A4toromanisches_Sprachgebiet_im_Fr%C3%BChmittelalter.PNG

The Romansh speaking areas in 700-1100 (orange + yellow) and 1100 onwards (yellow). That's a pretty sizable chunk, it is almost about as large as French Switzerland IOTL. Perhaps if you had a surviving Latin Roman Empire - say until 700 or 800AD (or some other Latin-friendly PoD) that area could expand to cover the majority of OTL Switzerland?

LSCatilina · Jul 12, 2012

Do you seen your map? It's located in a small portion of OTL Switzerland, more small than actual francophone part of the country.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/obrian0620/1.1289495297.switzerland-s-linguistic-diversity.gif

Admittedly, it would be bigger than Italianophone part of Switerland.

And if you add other retho-romans languages or super-dialects, yes, the center of gravity is eastern, not western based.

So, I don't see what your point is.

For a surviving Roman Empire, it would be radically different. If super-dialects like Retho-Roman, Gallo-Roman existed at least up to the III century, they differencied themselves precisely because you had no longer a Roman Empire to serve as linguistic focus.

Retho-Roman as languages would be likely butterflied in this TL. Maybe surviving as *Italian dialect. And I'm not conviced of this.

Alex Richards · Jul 13, 2012

I'll point out also that Graubunden is sparesley populated. Originally I though you might be able to get a majority just with Brune's Tellgau, but Schwyz alone has practically the same population as Graubunden and then you need to add in the rest of the Waldstätten. An independent Graubunden might be able to get a Romansch majority through a lot of promotion, but that's pretty much it.

Andreas · Jul 13, 2012

IMHO language unification is a pure outcome of the Nationalism. So, in order to have all these languages to survive, you need to butterfly a lot of major historic events, most notably the prevailance of the nationalist ideas from late 18th c. onwards.

Concider that not only separate languages, but also dialects and idioms, are extinct due to the formalization of centrally controlled national educational systems by the nation-states, which embraced certain forms of national identity and did not tolerate much variations...

LSCatilina · Jul 13, 2012

Andreas said:
IMHO language unification is a pure outcome of the Nationalism. So, in order to have all these languages to survive, you need to butterfly a lot of major historic events, most notably the prevailance of the nationalist ideas from late 18th c. onwards.

Linguistic unification, and elaboration of standard languages can be founded as far than Middle-Ages or Antiquity.

Greek koinè, trobadoresque Occitan are such exemple.

The main difference with today standard language was they never used as "official languages" or in the purpose of replacing the dialects.

This, as you said, is more due to the apparition of nation concept, between XVI and XIX centuries.

Andreas · Jul 14, 2012

LSCatilina said:
Linguistic unification, and elaboration of standard languages can be founded as far than Middle-Ages or Antiquity.

Greek koinè, trobadoresque Occitan are such exemple.

The main difference with today standard language was they never used as "official languages" or in the purpose of replacing the dialects.

This, as you said, is more due to the apparition of nation concept, between XVI and XIX centuries.

My thoughts excactly, only much better described!

altwere · Jul 14, 2012

what about some early churchman, who gets elected pope. decide that languages are a gift from God and all of them should be spoken.

Marc Pasquin · Jul 15, 2012

altwere said:
what about some early churchman, who gets elected pope. decide that languages are a gift from God and all of them should be spoken.

taken to its logical conclusion, that mean you shouldn't speak a foreign tongue unless you want a visit from the inquisition.

"FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I WAS SNEEZING, I WASN'T SPEAKING WELSH !!!"

LSCatilina · Jul 15, 2012

1)The power of the pope, in early christianity is comparable to the power of Archbishop of Canterbury upon Mormons today.

Up to 900's, the ponctifical power was most of all symbolic as the church were organized by kingdom : eventually the king or at the very last the most important bishop(s) of the kingdom had the last words.

The actual ponctifical power came from carolingian era.

2)Of course languages were gift of God for a medieval man. I mean, besided the fact God is supposed to have created all the languages because of Babel, you just have to see Isidorius of Sevilla or Bede the Venerable to see they were accomplished linguists.

3)The disappearance of these languages is more due to acculturation, and was really noticable only when the concept of nation appeared, and critically the idea that a nation had to be homogenous.

It's more late than early christianity. Maybe XVI for England, France, Italy, Spain, XVII for central Europe and XIX for eastern Europe.

And it's only the ideological principles, most of these languages were still widely spoken (at the notable exception of dalmatic) in the XIX. Rural exodus, national education, mass media had far more importance than "I said it should be protected".

kasumigenx · Jul 15, 2012

I think the Polish dialect of Lower Silesia could be revived in the age of nationalisms because it only became almost extinct during the late 19th century.

I think Grabunden and Grigioni could be annexed by Aquilea and Aquilea becomes a nation that speaks Rhaeto Romance and not just a Bishorophic.