1919: Allies in Berlin-effects on the world

[LOTLOF]

If the Western Allies go that far expect the French to demand and probably get the west bank of the Rhine. Also I would expect to see the French stripping German industry wherever they can. Think of how the Soviets acted in East Germany. Having had so much of their own territory ruined they will demand not just reparations but machinery, railroad engines, trucks, and any machinery that can possibly be useful to them. They will also push as hard as they can to break up Germany into small states.

I don't believe Wilson and Lloyd George would go that far with a possible Red Russia to the east. But France will be in a position to wring everything they can out of Germany, particularly after US troops leave probably in the early 20's. I expect the French would be the ones most determined to occupy German soil no matter the cost. There won't be any stab in the back theory but there will be a monumental thirst for revenge against the west and especially France.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Which they're not going to do in 1919 because in this case they're the Marshal Zhukov to the Germans' Germans.

The British and the French were the equivalent of the Red Army in late 1918. And as others have pointed out the US was building its capabilities rapidly. Germany was tapped out and being hit hard by Spanish flu. Worse even if they did gain some breathing space I could see Ludendorff and Hindenburg frittering it away on some 'Battle of the Bulge' style folly to try and force the Allies into some sort of acceptable peace; probably with Germany keeping her Brest-Litovsk gains.
The outcome would probably be a a rapid German collapse after the last of their resources had been squandered.

[Derek Jackson]

Could the Kaiser or thosearoudnhim have tried to be that fanatical

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Derek Jackson

Could the Kaiser or thosearoudnhim have tried to be that fanatical

I think fanatical is the wrong word, desperate and clutching at straws might be a better description. Remember that as this is happening they've basically burned their bridges as far as the Armistice goes. So it would be a choice of doing something to change the situation or just get ground ever further back into a collapsing Germany with the end game coming with the Entente in Berlin.

[jony663]

Originally Posted by Svetonius21

Being on german soil allies are close to russian borders but I doubt they will have enough power and motivation after such long war to effectively help whites, if there are any whites left.

Maybe not helping the Whites, but possibly the Poles.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Garrison

That's really what held them back OTL. Some of the leaders suspected Germany was teetering on the brink but how many lives could they spend testing that theory? They could impose pretty stringent terms on the Germans without pushing for unconditional surrender. The problem wasn't the Versailles Treaty in the end; it was the lack of will and means to enforce the terms in the 1930s.
With hindsight we can say it might have been worth the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands more lives in 1918-19 to plant a Tricolor/Union Jack/Stars and Stripes on the Reichstag and spare tens of millions from Hitler's lunacy later but without foreknowledge it would have been a hard sell in November 1918.

and don't forget Germany was not the only problem that came out of Versaille. Dozens of news states bickering with downtrotten Germany and with one another over disputable borders. it never ended in 1920. The disputes got projected into the 30's and on. Hitler was feeding on it like a vulture on carrion.

More likely, they would have had to stay in Germany, as later it would become the mandate in occupied german zones after ww2. As soon as they leave, the things start rolling their own way. The presence albeit brief of allied troops may have made german desperation even more desparate.A good german is a devided german.

[LOTLOF]

Originally Posted by b12ox

As soon as they leave, the things start rolling their own way. The presence albeit brief of allied troops may have made german desperation even more desparate.A good german is a devided german.

That would be the French argument and if you see Germany as the final ultimate enemy it makes sense.

The problem is once you chop them up into Saxony, Bavaria, Hess, and how ever many other small states you have crerated a massive power vacuum in a region with lots of small, unstable, fiercely nationalistic states. The result is very likely to be the balkanization of central and eastern Europe. Given all their conflicting territorial claims and no single dominant power in the region the almost certain guarantee is going to be a long series of brush wars.

In addition when the Soviet Union eventaully recovers from its civil war it is going to start eyeing all these tiny little countries on its western border and start to drool. The same British and French governments who were unwilling to go to war to defend Austria or Czechoslovakia from Hitler are going to be even less willing to start a war over Finland, Poland, Lithuania, or Prussia. You are pretty much inviting the USSR to completely dominate eastern and central Europe. It's the reason why Iraq was not carved up. Because if you did that Iran would become too powerful in the region.

There is also the matter of reparations. Tear up Germany and all the successor states are much poorer and less able to pay them. A dozen weak poor countries can't afford to pay what one large rich country can. If you destroy Germany you don't have anyone to collect from. Or at least you can't hope to collect near as much.

[Derek Jackson]

Originally Posted by Garrison

I think fanatical is the wrong word, desperate and clutching at straws might be a better description. Remember that as this is happening they've basically burned their bridges as far as the Armistice goes. So it would be a choice of doing something to change the situation or just get ground ever further back into a collapsing Germany with the end game coming with the Entente in Berlin.

If they kept fighting whilst Germany was being steadily occupied they would have to be fanatical

[LOTLOF]

Originally Posted by Derek Jackson

If they kept fighting whilst Germany was being steadily occupied they would have to be fanatical

If it's your side doing it it's called heroic. If it's the enemy then it's fanatical. If they believe the peace that is going to be imposed on them will destroy Germany why wouldn't they fight to the very end? They pretty much did in 1945, and that was for a much worse government.