WI: Spanish Introduce Camels to Americas

[Pesterfield]

In the mid 19th century the U.S. experimented with camels in the Southwest, what would be the impact of Spain trying the same idea when they first start into the deserts of northern Mexico and the Southwest?

[miguelrj]

Originally Posted by Pesterfield

In the mid 19th century the U.S. experimented with camels in the Southwest, what would be the impact of Spain trying the same idea when they first start into the deserts of northern Mexico and the Southwest?

There are no wild camels in America nowadays so whatever difficulties that led for the abadonment/failure of the idea IOTL will probably also happen under the Spaniards ITTL.
What happened specifically to that US experiment?

[Enigmajones]

Originally Posted by miguelrj

There are no wild camels in America nowadays so whatever difficulties that led for the abadonment/failure of the idea IOTL will probably also happen under the Spaniards ITTL.
What happened specifically to that US experiment?

Well there were...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Camel_Corps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cariboo_camels

[LSCatilina]

The biggest issue would be there wasn't, and never was camels in Spain or western Africa in first place.

Dromaderies in the other hand...My take on why it wasn't used was it's hard to use horses and dromaderies in the same time.

Furthermire, Spain wasn't interested in first place to devellop desertic aeras of North America, so they didn't bothered too much about how implant camelii there (as they are more fitting sand and/or arid regions).

[Pesterfield]

The horse issue is easy to solve, camel only units.

Perhaps some early explorers of the region get the idea, it wouldn't matter if they later decide nothing interesting is in the area as long as enough camels are brought in.

Of course with camels the Spanish may decide the desert areas are worth developing now.

Apparently they can go wild since the last sightings were in the 1930s and 40s, maybe the original imports just weren't enough to establish a truely viable population.

[Sven]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

The biggest issue would be there wasn't, and never was camels in Spain or western Africa in first place.

Dromaderies in the other hand...

Wait, why do you think dromedaries aren't camels?

[Tobit]

Spanish explorers in the area were able to rely on Native American trade routes that criss crossed South West. They basically were able to do the enslaving, converting, and trading they wanted to do based on those routes. However it would be interesting if an especially quixotic Spaniard, decided that the Golden cities were being hidden from them and he needed to cross the Deserts for even longer trips. Of course he wouldn't find anything, and likely he would have spent more on importing the camels than any possible material wealth he could find in the deserts.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Sven

Wait, why do you think dromedaries aren't camels?

In the same sense that dogs aren't wolfs.

[jacobus]

There's been a proposal to introduce camels, elephants, and some other animals of the African plain to parts of the United States, which is kind of interesting.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...imal_park.html

Maybe if North America had been colonized not by Europeans but by some other culture accustomed to using camels, they'd have been brought over here. Of course, much of the continent isn't suited to them.

I've heard the armies or border guards of India and South Africa still maintain units of chameliers to patrol their deserts.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

In the same sense that dogs aren't wolfs.

But when people talk about camels, they are talking about dromedaries. Very rare to talk about bactrian camels, or feral Australian camels.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

But when people talk about camels, they are talking about dromedaries. Very rare to talk about bactrian camels, or feral Australian camels.

Well, what a loss I'm not psychic then.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

The biggest issue would be there wasn't, and never was camels in Spain or western Africa in first place.

There are no camels in Morocco? I'm shocked.

[miguelrj]

Interestingly:

[Pesterfield]

Even if the Spanish give up on the experiment like the U.S. did if they bring over enough to form a strong feral population how will that impact the natives?

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by miguelrj

Interestingly:

Miocene actually, long before the Pleistocene.

The challenge is not that hard either, people. At least with a later timeframe and in a different context than the OP seems to be aiming for.

There is a sizeable population of dromedary camels in the Canary Islands, particularly in Lanzarote. I don't know for how long it's been there but a quick Google search says it already was in the 18th century. Pair that with the reign of Charles III (1759-1788), under which Spain colonized California, explored the Nootka Sound and sent over 2000 families of Canary Islanders to boost Louisiana's population and you have your POD.

Suppose that anyone in the chain of command had decided that camels would be useful as pack and draft animals in Louisiana or the West and sends some dozens from the islands along with those colonists.

It probably wouldn't make a major difference in a short time, but in a generation or two there could be enough animals for say, the Mexicans or the Texans or the Americans to make a "camelry" corps.

The American plan failed IOTL because it wasn't given enough faith and time to succeed. But I have no doubt that under other circunstances the results would be very different. After all, the deserts and prairies of both Americas are loaded with cows, horses and donkeys introduced by the Spanish. And some of the first camels that made it to Australia were purchased in the Canary Islands IOTL, too.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

But when people talk about camels, they are talking about dromedaries. Very rare to talk about bactrian camels, or feral Australian camels.

It depend on where you are from because here dromaderies and camels are not exactly the same animal.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

Miocene actually, long before the Pleistocene.

The challenge is not that hard either, people. At least with a later timeframe and in a different context than the OP seems to be aiming for.

There is a sizeable population of dromedary camels in the Canary Islands, particularly in Lanzarote. I don't know for how long it's been there but a quick Google search says it already was in the 18th century. Pair that with the reign of Charles III (1759-1788), under which Spain colonized California, explored the Nootka Sound and sent over 2000 families of Canary Islanders to boost Louisiana's population and you have your POD.

Suppose that anyone in the chain of command had decided that camels would be useful as pack and draft animals in Louisiana or the West and sends some dozens from the islands along with those colonists.

It probably wouldn't make a major difference in a short time, but in a generation or two there could be enough animals for say, the Mexicans or the Texans or the Americans to make a "camelry" corps.

The American plan failed IOTL because it wasn't given enough faith and time to succeed. But I have no doubt that under other circunstances the results would be very different. After all, the deserts and prairies of both Americas are loaded with cows, horses and donkeys introduced by the Spanish. And some of the first camels that made it to Australia were purchased in the Canary Islands IOTL, too.

Is this map fully correct? there sure are camels in Cental Asia which is much further north than the blue in the map suggests. Diffrent breeds of horses require diffrent grass to feed on. This could have been the case with Camles transported to America. Their stomachs might not have been able to get used to local grass.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

It depend on where you are from because here dromaderies and camels are not exactly the same animal.

Really? What animal does 'camel' refer to? Imported llamas?

[Timmy811]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

It depend on where you are from because here dromaderies and camels are not exactly the same animal.

Dromaderies are definitely camels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel

[Lycaon pictus]

Have some Native American tell a conquistador that there's a huge city of gold out in the desert… wayyyy out in the desert. Have the conquistador be smart enough to ask "How do we do a really thorough job of exploring the desert without killing our own horses and stranding ourselves?" but not smart enough to think "these guys will tell us whatever they think we want to hear to get us to go away." Have the conquistador persuade the king to buy camels (probably dromedaries — they'd be easier to get) so that they can find more gold to enrich Spain with.

Or, have a desert-dwelling tribe put up some serious resistance to the Spanish, to the point where some colonial governor thinks "What I need is a way to attack these people where they live."