A federated Britain: How?

[Strathmore_and_Kinghorne]

How would you make Britain an Elective monarchy and federation of states like the HRE with an early POD?

[Xhavnak]

Originally Posted by Strathmore_and_Kinghorne

How would you make Britain an Elective monarchy and federation of states like the HRE with an early POD?

Have the norman invasion fail and Britain slowly develop fuedalism on its own - much weaker royalty.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Xhavnak

Have the norman invasion fail and Britain slowly develop fuedalism on its own - much weaker royalty.

The Anglo-Saxon monarchy was not weak, though. Stronger than say, France's (and France post-1066 had a much more stable succession than England).

Do we have to include Wales and Scotland, or is this Britain=England?

[Strathmore_and_Kinghorne]

All the Isles, eventually, I hope.

[Clandango]

The HRE wasn't all that unified. Any smaller areas to be added? Calais? Shdtlands? Man?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Strathmore_and_Kinghorne

All the Isles, eventually, I hope.

Now that might be difficult.

If the crown in Winchester (or London or wherever) is weak, the ties keeping Scotland,Wales, and Ireland's kingdoms bound to it are also going to be weak.

If its strong, you won't get a HRE-like federation.

[Strathmore_and_Kinghorne]

The Crown would not neccesarily be in winchester, maybe Oxford, or Lincoln?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Strathmore_and_Kinghorne

The Crown would not neccesarily be in winchester, maybe Oxford, or Lincoln?

York, even.

Lots of possibilities depending on our POD.

But wherever it is, I'm not sure why the stronger princes (dukes, lesser kings, counts, tribal chieftains, jarls, whatever) don't just break free and abandon even nominal obligations to the center.

[Mike Stearns]

Originally Posted by Xhavnak

Have the norman invasion fail and Britain slowly develop fuedalism on its own - much weaker royalty.

Yeah. Butterflying the Norman Invasion would be a good start. Until that point that Anglo-Saxons had been slowly moving toward a unified kingdom with an elected monarch at its head.

[Xhavnak]

The saxon council of earls could become a system similar to the electors of the HRE if it could be steered that way - perhaps if the royal line is rather precarious at some point.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Mike Stearns

Yeah. Butterflying the Norman Invasion would be a good start. Until that point that Anglo-Saxons had been slowly moving toward a unified kingdom with an elected monarch at its head.

England has arguably been a kingdom for a century, with the crown resting firmly in the hands of the House of Cerdic until Edward the Confessor's death - and Harold was elected to have a stronger monarch than the closest bloodline heir.

Not sure this is a basis for a weak federation.

[Strathmore_and_Kinghorne]

How could Harold have defeated the Normans?

[Xhavnak]

Originally Posted by Strathmore_and_Kinghorne

How could Harold have defeated the Normans?

Not had the Tostig/Viking invasion so close to the norman one ?
And Hastings was damned close already, even just stopping the fyrd from being reckless might do it.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Strathmore_and_Kinghorne

How could Harold have defeated the Normans?

William is killed. The Normans rout.

Nearly happened OTL.

Other PODs exist, but killing off William is a good one.

[Mike Stearns]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

England has arguably been a kingdom for a century, with the crown resting firmly in the hands of the House of Cerdic until Edward the Confessor's death - and Harold was elected to have a stronger monarch than the closest bloodline heir.

Not sure this is a basis for a weak federation.

The Anglo-Saxons weren't weak, but they LOOKED weak because of the Viking Invasion, which also had the long-term effect of destabilizing the succession. If you butterfly the Viking Invasion, you also potentially butterfly the Norman Invasion, because you give the Anglo-Saxon kings time to consolidate their rule over England that they didn't have otherwise.

[V-J]

Obvious answer here is to perpetuate the Hepatarchy, with the position of Bretwalda eventually forming into something equivalent to that of Emperor in the HRE.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by V-J

Obvious answer here is to perpetuate the Hepatarchy, with the position of Bretwalda eventually forming into something equivalent to that of Emperor in the HRE.

Or get the hms victory transported back to england at the time the first viking raid... that looked like it was going to end up as a federal kingdom.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Mike Stearns

The Anglo-Saxons weren't weak, but they LOOKED weak because of the Viking Invasion, which also had the long-term effect of destabilizing the succession. If you butterfly the Viking Invasion, you also potentially butterfly the Norman Invasion, because you give the Anglo-Saxon kings time to consolidate their rule over England that they didn't have otherwise.

They were doing a pretty good job OTL though is the point - and the succession went pretty well up until a Norman bastard claimed the eorl of Wessex promised him something.

[Last of the Stuarts]

Assuming that the Normans invaded and won as in OTL you may want to look at an alteration to the Magna Carta.
If the Barons had known that John was going to sware vasselage to the Pope to get round having signed the Magna Carta they may have been more direct in limiting the kings power.

It would be fairly easy (I think) to insert something about a parliment of lords meeting to advise the king, then the next step would come later with the Lords electing the king from the males in the royal house. Then the next step etc.

[Strathmore_and_Kinghorne]

From OUR ISLAND, A CASTLE by Dr C H Ioreksson

"... The Aenglishmen would have seen a mighty line of men running towards them. These men were clad in heavy mail hauberks, helmets and weilded an assortment of weapons: swords, spears and some axes. The Bastard expected the Anglish to falter, but his barrages had made a negligble effect...

Within an hour of scrumming against the wall of sheilds, the Bretons on Willems left began to falter, and then broke and fled... seeing the disaster as the Flemish and Norman divisions broke, Willem turned and fled...

Seeing The Bastard's lines falling back, many of the Fyrd attempted to give chase, but their lords held the line, hacking down many of those who tried to break...

In the confused retreat, Willem's horse fell to arrow fire... he himself was struck by rock and the spears of the enemy... Odo, his cousin, rode out under a banner of truce, to find his leige's corpse... The norman army left the field, broken...

Some Norman knights were attacked by a group of Thegns under the command of the young Edgar Aetheling, as they retreated towards Pevenscaea bay..."