Possible operators of the F-111

If the F-111 did not have the development issues in the beginning how many nations would have purchased it? In the OTL its was flown by the USAF and the RAAF. I would think that had development been no where as long and troublesome and the production version been cheaper than OTL that the additional list of operators would look like this

USN, RAF, RCAF, IIAF and maybe Turkey.

Is that list feasible or have I added/missed of an air force?

The reasoning behind my list goes as follows. Each of those operators needed range more than anything else be that as a bomber or a fighter.

The RAF actually ordered 50 F-111Ks, only to cancel the order later on. They may have kept the order, and added to it later.

The F-111B barely passed its carrier qualifications: for one thing, you lost sight of the flight deck as you flared for landing. Not a good thing coming aboard the boat. And in the light of SEA experience, the Navy wanted more than a fleet defender: they wanted an air superiority fighter as well. So I'd scratch the B from any possible production run.

As for Iran? The Shah of Iran was very interested in the F-111, and wanted both the F-4 and the F-111 in 1966. He was convinced to wait on the -111, but never revived the interest in the aircraft. Perhaps GD nudges him in, say, 1970-71, so that the F-111D or E is delivered?

The RCAF may have been interested, but when Trudeau comes in, forget it.

Turkey, no, but they did get F-4Es and RF-4Es (as did Greece). West Germany, perhaps.

Matt Wiser said:

The RAF actually ordered 50 F-111Ks, only to cancel the order later on. They may have kept the order, and added to it later.

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Thanks for bit about adding to the order. I would happen to agree with that. Which leads on to another question being the future development of the F-111- where could it have gone?

Matt Wiser said:

The F-111B barely passed its carrier qualifications: for one thing, you lost sight of the flight deck as you flared for landing. Not a good thing coming aboard the boat. And in the light of SEA experience, the Navy wanted more than a fleet defender: they wanted an air superiority fighter as well. So I'd scratch the B from any possible production run.

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Did not know that, OK consider the F-111B nixed.

Matt Wiser said:

The RCAF may have been interested, but when Trudeau comes in, forget it.

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Fair enough however the RCAF still needed/needs a very long range fighter to cover the arctic

Matt Wiser said:

Turkey, no, but they did get F-4Es and RF-4Es (as did Greece). West Germany, perhaps.

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I did think about West Germany however would it be seen being a bit too long range for them? May I ask that you elaborate on the reasons that Turkey would not have gone for it?

Pangur said:

Fair enough however the RCAF still needed/needs a very long range fighter to cover the arctic

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The F-111 never was a fighter.


Had an alternative wing been chosen, the aircraft might have been cheaper, less complex and earlier. Had the Vigi been developed with a conventional bomb stowage system, the F-111 may have been superfluous.

Sweden as part of their nuclear program?

A land-based version of the B was considered by both GD and Grumman, and might have worked for the USAF (continential air defense) and the RAF. A recon version was also mooted by GD. (and the RAAF's C models had a recon capability with a podded camera system mounted in the weapons bay)

What the RCAF wanted and what Trudeau was willing to give them are two different things. They were interested in the F-4 as well (as early as 1964), and McAir even considered a coproduction agreement, where Canadair would build F-4s not only for the RCAF, but for the RAF and Royal Navy as well. Trudeau, btw, is also the reason the Canadians never got the F-14, either, though a long-range interceptor was on their wish list.

Turkey's needs didn't include a long-range strike bird. Though they do have nuclear-certified squadrons under the dual-key arrangment, the F-4 and earlier, the F-100 and F-104, suited their needs at the time.

The F-111's range was about the same as a Tornado, and West Germany was a partner in the Tornado program.

Pangur said:

If the F-111 did not have the development issues in the beginning how many nations would have purchased it? In the OTL its was flown by the USAF and the RAAF. I would think that had development been no where as long and troublesome and the production version been cheaper than OTL that the additional list of operators .

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Is someone going to be asking this question about the JSF in he future?

Matt Wiser said:

The F-111's range was about the same as a Tornado, and West Germany was a partner in the Tornado program.

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So just maybe add Italy to the list and Saudi to list?

However I have come to the conclusion that F-111 was in a lot of ways a dead end development wise. Having written that I have wondered what the Israelies would have done with F-111F`s purchased say post revolution in Iran

Did Israel or Japan ever show interest?

Uruk said:

Sweden as part of their nuclear program?

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I don't know. It seems a bit big, expensive, and complex for them to buy, and they already had their own bomber on the drawing board (Which would presumably, as a purpose built design, fit their needs better), the Saab 36. Alternatively, they could potentially build a nuclear strike variant of the Draken (While designed as an interceptor, the export variants for Denmark were strike planes, so...) or, if the budget exists for it (IOTL the Swedes had to chose between the bomb and a new fighter as they couldn't afford both) the Viggen had a ground attack variant IOTL.

Matt Wiser said:

(and the RAAF's C models had a recon capability with a podded camera system mounted in the weapons bay)

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...Which was most famously used to spy on the dastardly Tasmanians.

BigWillyG said:

Did Israel or Japan ever show interest?

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In the case of Japan, I doubt they could even constitutionally buy them. "Offensive weapons" are strictly forbidden and they took this quite seriously at the time, even specifically designing their indigenous military cargo plane, the Kawasaki C-1, so that it would be restricted to operations in the Home Islands by keeping it's range down (Which proved problematic later on, as it proved difficult to get the C-1 to Okinawa following the handover). The F-111 is a heavy strike plane and it's laughable to try and make a case that it isn't an offensive weapon.

I am well aware of the Swedish nuclear program was dropped but it doesn´t change the fact that an of the shelf F-111 would be cheaper than developing and producing the A-36

If the F-111 had stayed in production, then one could add Italy and Saudi Arabia to the list. NATO members and major non-NATO allies (like Saudi) would probably have gotten the F-111F with the Pave Tack laser designator pod. Any Saudi (or Iranian aircraft for that matter) would have had the nuclear consent switches and wiring removed. (this is done with Saudi F-15s)

Israel didn't show any interest, and Japan is a no-go from the outset. Unless a land-based B variant is developed, and the JASDF wants it as a long-range interceptor.

The F111 is very much a niche weapon, only to be used by the most proficient, politically reliable allies with a genuine requirement for long range heavy strike. Apart from Australia and Britain there are precious few countries about that fit the bill. Germany, Japan and Italy are all out because in the 60s there were plenty around who vividly remembered WW2. A whole raft of others are out because the lack the proficiency or the genuine requirment, as well as being not as politically reliable as the US Congress (who OKs or blocks Foreign Military Sales) would like.

Perhaps France and Canada fit the bill.

Matt Wiser said:

If the F-111 had stayed in production, then one could add Italy and Saudi Arabia to the list. NATO members and major non-NATO allies (like Saudi) would probably have gotten the F-111F with the Pave Tack laser designator pod. Any Saudi (or Iranian aircraft for that matter) would have had the nuclear consent switches and wiring removed. (this is done with Saudi F-15s)

Israel didn't show any interest, and Japan is a no-go from the outset. Unless a land-based B variant is developed, and the JASDF wants it as a long-range interceptor.

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Seems like Israel would have been interested based on Osirek style long range strikes, unless it was considered too big and complex.

Riain said:

The F111 is very much a niche weapon, only to be used by the most proficient, politically reliable allies with a genuine requirement for long range heavy strike. Apart from Australia and Britain there are precious few countries about that fit the bill. Perhaps France and Canada fit the bill.

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France did not cross my mind for the reason that they were at that stage and indeed still are very much in the build your own mind set however fair point re range.

The French were looking at the AFVG aircraft, which is F111esqe, so under strange circumstances they could be a buyer.

Riain said:

The French were looking at the AFVG aircraft, which is F111esqe, so under strange circumstances they could be a buyer.

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I sweat to god only the french could manage that

When you look at French aircraft procurements over the last 50 years they look to be very single minded; Mirage III, IV, V, F1, 2000, Jaguar and Rafale. But along the way they have looked very closely at some interesting things like AFVG, Mirage G, F2 and 4000, so presumably the French could have been a buyer of big planes just as easily as they became a buyer of small planes IOTL.

Riain said:

When you look at French aircraft procurements over the last 50 years they look to be very single minded; Mirage III, IV, V, F1, 2000, Jaguar and Rafale. But along the way they have looked very closely at some interesting things like AFVG, Mirage G, F2 and 4000, so presumably the French could have been a buyer of big planes just as easily as they became a buyer of small planes IOTL.

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All very true however they made a big point of looking and no buying/staying with a joint project with the exception of the Jaguar for military aircraft until very recently

Tornado prequel?

If it had better engines, the F111 could have been bought by everybody who bought the Tornado IDS. Since the A7 got so much better when the TF30 was dumped for a RR, how about a F111 with RR engines going to Italy Germany Britain and Saudi Arabia, with the Tornado being butterflied out. As long as the prospect of the Tornado is there, even in early MCRA concept form, nobody will buy the more expensive older F111F.