What Would Happened to Nazi Moscow?

[anw_rev]

If the Germans somehow able to acquire European Russia, what would happen to former capital of the USSR?
Which building be demolished, renamed, and even rebuilt? If it be the capital of Reichskommissariat Muscovia, where would the governor resided?
And lastly, how would they rename the city itself?

Thanks in advance!

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by anw_rev

If the Germans somehow able to acquire European Russia, what would happen to former capital of the USSR?
Which building be demolished, renamed, and even rebuilt? If it be the capital of Reichskommissariat Muscovia, where would the governor resided?
And lastly, how would they rename the city itself?

Thanks in advance!

Moscow was to be destroyed and turned into a reservoir.

[anw_rev]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Moscow was to be destroyed and turned into a reservoir.

I thought that would be the fate of Leningrad.

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by anw_rev

I thought that would be the fate of Leningrad.

Not for the want of trying

On a more serious note Leningrad would have been a naval base for sure and Moscow would have been the seat of German power for European Russia

[Snake Featherston]

Everyone in the city is butchered, the city is razed brick by brick, and replaced by a Reservoir.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by anw_rev

I thought that would be the fate of Leningrad.

Actually Leningrad was simply going to be razed brick by brick and everyone in it slain.

Originally Posted by Pangur

Not for the want of trying

On a more serious note Leningrad would have been a naval base for sure and Moscow would have been the seat of German power for European Russia

When the Nazis occupy the USSR? Ridiculous. They wanted any relic of Russian civilization totally destroyed.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Actually Leningrad was simply going to be razed brick by brick and everyone in it slain.

The people who survived the siege would rather be chased away, some enslaved to help expolit whats left of the city. The Germans who were very eager to use or modify any russian combat armour as fast as it was in their hands would be unlikly to destroy the potential loot just like that.

Whenthe Nazis occupy the USSR? Ridiculous. They wanted any relic of Russian civilization totally destroyed.

Hitler loved Babushka thingy.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by b12ox

The people who survived the siege would rather be chased away, some enslaved to help expolit whats left of the city. The Germans who were very eager to use or modify any russian combat armour as fast as it was in their hands would be unlikly to destroy the potential loot just like that.

This was their objective. Hitler will turn down the chances to have his wretched hive of scum and villainy rape and pillage when Hell freezes over.

[b12ox]

But that never happened so we can not be sure. Everywhere the krauts went they put exploitation over blind destruction. There were only 4000 people in Einstatzgruppen. It is enough to fill a movie theater but not for the land they were shooting to conquer. Why soviets would have to be treated diffrently? Even when the hell freezes over, there would be enough problems to overcome to prevent them from engaging in some kind of blind rage.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by b12ox

But that never happened so we can not be sure. Everywhere the krauts went they put exploitation over blind destruction. There were only 4000 people in Einstatzgruppen. It is enough to fill a movie theater but not for the land they were shooting to conquer. Why soviets would have to be treated diffrently? Even when the hell freezes over, there would be enough problems to overcome to prevent them from engaging in some kind of blind rage.

Neither has anything else in terms of AH discussions on this site if we want to suddenly play the realism card. In reality the Nazis only did this IOTL because their invasion of the USSR failed, and primarily in the West. In the East Nazi rule meant you died. The Soviets are the people the Nazis wanted to be the Narragansetts and Wampanoags to their USA, to put it bluntly. The Nazis are never going to let them live if they can simply slaughter them, while their OTL Barbarossa objectives specified the total destruction of Moscow and Leningrad both.

[b12ox]

They will slaughter them only when they decide that keeping them alive is too dengerous and only when the very slaughtering does not makes things even more dangerous. We are not talking about pacific Jews with no weapons. The germans apparently were slaughtering Slavs as they went left and right, but with what? 4000 peope in Einsatzgruppen. If I was stationed in Ukraine, the last thing i would do would be to shoot at the locals.

[aktarian]

I think that no matter what Hitler said he planned to do in Moscow (and Leningrad for that matter) it wouldn't be razed in strictest sense of the word. For one razing multi million cities is different than razing village or even town. For another cities would still be usefull for controling the area, transport, what industry would remain and shelter.

What I think would happen is that cities would be depopulated to large degree, people either transported to Germany as forced labour or left to die due to malnutrition and disease, certain buildings would be destroyed, churches and museums looted either for state or private collections (Göring), some would be taken over for German administration and rest left to fend for themselves.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by b12ox

They will slaughter them only when they decide that keeping them alive is too dengerous and only when the very slaughtering does not makes things even more dangerous. We are not talking about pacific Jews with no weapons. The germans apparently were slaughtering Slavs as they went left and right, but with what? 4000 peope in Einsatzgruppen. If I was stationed in Ukraine, the last thing i would do would be to shoot at the locals.

They made this decision as early as when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. These are Nazis, people, they're not rational actors as we'd see it. To them the mere existence of the Judaeo-Bolshevik Asiatic Horde is an impendig catastrophe. If you were a Nazi in Ukraine you'd be shooting at any filthy Slavic Untermensch who looked at you cross-eyed. There is a reason that Erich Koch enabled the Ukrainians to become such good auxiliaries of the WWII USSR without meeting a beat.

Originally Posted by aktarian

I think that no matter what Hitler said he planned to do in Moscow (and Leningrad for that matter) it wouldn't be razed in strictest sense of the word. For one razing multi million cities is different than razing village or even town. For another cities would still be usefull for controling the area, transport, what industry would remain and shelter.

What I think would happen is that cities would be depopulated to large degree, people either transported to Germany as forced labour or left to die due to malnutrition and disease, certain buildings would be destroyed, churches and museums looted either for state or private collections (Göring), some would be taken over for German administration and rest left to fend for themselves.

We're talking about the same guy who razed Lidice and engaged in the wholesale attempts to annihilate entire people through murder factories? Yeah, I'm gonna say "No." The Nazis aren't thinking in terms of rational empire-holding as we'd define it, to them the existence of Moscow, Leningrad, and East Slavic peoples is an existential threat. If people actually read the Nazis' own views of things, they'd realize that Leningrad was to be reduced to a wilderness (can't have Russians commemorating a victory over a Germanic power, after all), and that Moscow being destroyed brick by brick and replaced by an artificial reservoir was always in the plans.

Why people get cold feet at contemplating the architects of the Holocaust actually doing what they said they were going to do is very curious. It's not like the OTL Nazis were over-abundant in restraint or concern about human life.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

They made this decision as early as when Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. These are Nazis, people, they're not rational actors as we'd see it. To them the mere existence of the Judaeo-Bolshevik Asiatic Horde is an impendig catastrophe. If you were a Nazi in Ukraine you'd be shooting at any filthy Slavic Untermensch who looked at you cross-eyed. There is a reason that Erich Koch enabled the Ukrainians to

The Soviets made sure the locals get confused. They attacked villages disguised in german army uniforms killing people to make the locals to rebels.It was cynical, but not more cynical than many other directives Stavka introduced in the war as long as there were benefits to it. The Germans didn't have any buissnes in killing locals at will nor did they have enough people specialized to cover the area. Everything nasty they would do to locals would backfire tenthfold.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by b12ox

The Soviets made sure the locals get confused. They attacked villages disguised in german army uniforms killing people to make the locals to rebels.It was cynical, but not more cynical than many other directives Stavka introduced in the war as long as there were benefits to it. The Germans didn't have any buissnes in killing locals at will nor did they have enough people specialized to cover the area. Everything nasty they would do to locals would backfire tenthfold.

Oh, please. The Germans killed the locals deliberately all by themselves, the Soviets didn't have to invent any incidents, nor did they have the time for that in the midst of the 1941-2 battles. Are you seriously claiming there were no Nazi atrocities in Erich Koch's Ukraine? The Nazis didn't give a damn what some Untermenschen thought of their attempt to build progress (in their view) over a fountain of corpses.

To someone who's rational in a sense of realizing this backfires, you might be correct. Such people wouldn't have invaded the USSR intent on destroying Russian civilization to start with. When Erich Koch himself says "I am known as a brutal dog and we're here to exploit and starve people" then I think it's safe to say that this set a bar much lower than Soviet rule. The Nazis burned down villages and engaged in wholesale massacres of Soviet Slavs as well as Jews. It's just the people who are fanbois of the Nazi Reich don't want to realize that in this their precious Mary Sues in Feldgrau were no different than the SS as far as why this has been forgotten in the post-Soviet era.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Why people get cold feet at contemplating the architects of the Holocaust actually doing what they said they were going to do is very curious. It's not like the OTL Nazis were over-abundant in restraint or concern about human life.

Aktarian pointed out that destroying these cities is a truly massive undertaking. It might simply be beyond their capabilities, unless they simply wanted to do endless bombing runs until everything is rendered dust.

It's a matter of strength, not desire.

[anw_rev]

If the Nazis so brutal (killing every Slav they found), there would be no Ukrainian or anticommunist Russian liberation army who collaborate with them in the first place, right?

I read Leningrad was to be razed, but don't know the extent would be. But Moscow? If Moscow to be razed too, why would they name the Reichskommissariat as Muscovy? I mean, too dangerously close to the citys name, eventhough from the name of the river there.
I don't think that make sense.

[Macragge1]

They wouldn't actually go through with it; it would destroy an already shaky transport infrastructure that any occupier would rely on entirely, whilst simultaneously depriving him of shelter for his troops. The logistics of actually razing a major city to extinction (as opposed to some thatched huts in the Ukraine) would be staggering. There would be some demolition of political buildings and monuments, but these people weren't stupid.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Aktarian pointed out that destroying these cities is a truly massive undertaking. It might simply be beyond their capabilities, unless they simply wanted to do endless bombing runs until everything is rendered dust.

It's a matter of strength, not desire.

These are Nazis, it might be beyond their capability but why would Adolf Hitler or Reinhard Heydrich give a flying fuck about their capability? They never did IOTL, in a scenario where their demented Generalplan Ost is put into effect, they care even less.

Originally Posted by anw_rev

If the Nazis so brutal (killing every Slav they found), there would be no Ukrainian or anticommunist Russian liberation army who collaborate with them in the first place, right?

I read Leningrad was to be razed, but don't know the extent would be. But Moscow? If Moscow to be razed too, why would they name the Reichskommissariat as Muscovy? I mean, too dangerously close to the citys name, eventhough from the name of the river there.
I don't think that make sense.

By collaborators you mean the RONA that always fought in the West (against its will, it wanted to fight Stalin), or in Prague? They would name it as Muscovy in the kind of nostalgic air that led Americans to name say, Iowa, Illinois, Massachusetts, Ohio, Miami, Alabama, Mississippi, Maine, the Dakotas, and suchlike after Native Americans. Which is I repeat an analogy Hitler himself used. The USA wanted to exterminate Native Americans, this never stopped them from using Native American names. Those....individuals....were never embraced by Hitler, he had to be talked into using them and he absolutely refused to ever give them any say-so in his murder campaign in the East. Using them as some example of Nazi flexibility shows a limited understanding of what the Nazis were all too sincere in attempting to do. Oh, and how many Massachusett live in Massachusetts? How many Iowa in Iowa? Are there any Alabama left in Alabama? Same principle as Herr "Let's make Russia our India" Hitler sees it. Of course to anyone who looks at this with a realistic vision, it's madness. But we're talking people who made madness the basis of policy.

And you sincerely expect sense from people whose lifelong goal was the extermination of all the Poles and the bare minimum of 30 million Russians, which would in all probability be far more in practice?

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

They wouldn't actually go through with it; it would destroy an already shaky transport infrastructure that any occupier would rely on entirely, whilst simultaneously depriving him of shelter for his troops. The logistics of actually razing a major city to extinction (as opposed to some thatched huts in the Ukraine) would be staggering. There would be some demolition of political buildings and monuments, but these people weren't stupid.

Oh really? The same people who in the middle of the Jhassy-Kishinev Offensive used much-needed railroads to send Hungary's Jews to the gas chambers are going to hold back from slaughter here?

People, the Nazis sincerely wanted to annihilate Slavic civilization, we shouldn't suddenly decide that they get cold feet when they never showed that at any time prior. They don't give a damn about the logistics.