F-23 in service in NATO and other nations

I am working on a time line where the F-22 is still chosen as the ATF but Northrop tries selling the F-23 to the UK, Germany and Japan.

Ideas:
- The Mitsubishi F-2 project get canceled when the F-16 Agile Falcon does not off the drawing board
- The Eurofighter concept does not work due to political infighting, governments pulling funding, demands for work and construction that make no sense, etc.....
- I am thinking that this might keep McDonnell Douglas from having to sell to Boeing, MD-11s

I will have the first idea up in the next day or two.

Not bloody likely IMO. I doubt that the F-23 would be any easier to export than the F-22 (i.e., not at all due to the super-duper-high-tech stealth), nor is it likely to be less expensive.

And while Eurofighter getting into more trouble is quite possible, a total failure is rather less so, precisely because the partner nations do need a new fighter. Worst scenario would probably be Spain and/or Italy pulling out & the EF-version seeing service being a cheaper model.

It sounds like a great idea, but Northrop doesn't own the rights, and the government might put the State Department in charge of the sale, as was the case with the F-20 Tigershark, which didn't sell too well.

M-D would have survived better if it hadn't become involved with the Avenger II and Cheney.

I really doubt that Northrop could independently sell the F-23 to other countries after losing the ATF competition. Not only would the DOD veto any foreign sale of the fighter, but why would a nation want to buy a fighter that lost a competition when they could attempt to purchase the winner? The F-23 was a superb aircraft (perhaps better than the F-22), but I really can't see Germany purchasing it. They could have built their own aircraft, like the MBB Lampyridae. The UK is equally as unlikely of a customer, but Northrop could possibly assist in the development of a British 5 Gen fighter, providing money exists for such a program.

Hipsterredneck556 said:

I really doubt that Northrop could independently sell the F-23 to other countries after losing the ATF competition. Not only would the DOD veto any foreign sale of the fighter, but why would a nation want to buy a fighter that lost a competition when they could attempt to purchase the winner? The F-23 was a superb aircraft (perhaps better than the F-22), but I really can't see Germany purchasing it. They could have built their own aircraft, like the MBB Lampyridae. The UK is equally as unlikely of a customer, but Northrop could possibly assist in the development of a British 5 Gen fighter, providing money exists for such a program.

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The MBB Lampyridae was a 1980s project similar to that of the F-117 Nighthawk. By the time this TL started it would likely be irrelevant.

As for the UK, they could likely have BAE work on something to fill the place of a failed Eurofighter. BAE was more than capable of developing its own stealth and fighter aircraft.

I think it's asking a bit much for the Typhoon not to work, it was mostly mature technology, the problems came with the advanced data fusion etc. The plane could have been bought into service earlier and upgraded to these things if need be.

highly unlikely to work, and think if they spent that much on a plane, the voters would want that money to be spent in europe (or the respective countries).

So to start:

April 1991 -
- Northrop has just found out that they lost the ATF contract. It was a giant blow to the reputation of the company as well with their partner McDonnell Douglas.
- The Asian sales team gets a weird request from the Japanese company Mitsubishi looking for some of the technical specs of the YF-23, they forward the requests over the State Department to find out if what they can and can not do.

June 1991 -
- Mitsubishi announces that the partnership between them and General Dynamics has gotten in to trouble for the FS-X program. They are now looking for a new partner for the FS-X program.

July 1991 -
- Due to the cost of unification Germany threatens to pull out of the Eurofighter program. Due to the election promises by Helmut Kohl Germany starts looking for some other aircraft. The German Defense ministry wants to keep the Eurofighter but finds that there is to much political and social opposition to the Eurofighter. They announce their with-drawl on Aug 1 1991. British aerospace companies demand the cancellation fines when it come out that the German companies are not asking for the fines for the tax breaks that the government is giving them for the next 10 years. The matter is sent to the WTO

Sept 1991
- Spain and France sign an agreement in principle that will see Spain buy 10 Rafale from France and assemble 60 more with an option of 25. This is seen as another major blow to the Eurofighter program.
- Talks are happening in Tokyo and Washington for a new partnership for the FS-X.

Nov 1991
- The UK is invited to the FS-X talks by Japan, they are finding that the US is stalling with details and they know that the Eurofighter program is looking for a new partner that can take over for Germany

Jan 1992
- While the politicians are arguing about the FS-X and Eurofighter programs a group of senior engineers from Mitsubishi, British Aerospace, Northrop and McDonnell Douglas meet in London for a very unofficial gathering. They brain stormed ideas for fighter that would meet the needs of both the UK and Japan. One idea that they had as 2 fighters, one a single engine and a dual-engine craft, like the combo of the F-15 and F-16, but this time try and keep as many of the parts common. During the talks someone suggest that Canada and Australia might be good partners in this project. Another thing that was brought up was that this idea would fall apart if the political will was not there to make it work.


(more later)

Anime Ninja said:

July 1991 -
- Due to the cost of unification Germany threatens to pull out of the Eurofighter program.

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Sorry but I can´t really see this happening.

Even in OTL they just decided to buy less and thats all.

If you want the Euros buying the american plane you must go before ... maybe the Carter gov offers Britain and Germany to cooperate in the Next Gen Fighter project? Of course, BEFORE the EF program starts ... Don´t know if Reagan/ Bush will keep the project alive anyway.

Because once started is a matter of principles for those nations. Future EADS and BAE put too many eggs in that basket, even France abandoning the project did not cut it at all.

Faralis said:

Sorry but I can´t really see this happening.

Even in OTL they just decided to buy less and thats all.

If you want the Euros buying the american plane you must go before ... maybe the Carter gov offers Britain and Germany to cooperate in the Next Gen Fighter project? Of course, BEFORE the EF program starts ... Don´t know if Reagan/ Bush will keep the project alive anyway.

Because once started is a matter of principles for those nations. Future EADS and BAE put too many eggs in that basket, even France abandoning the project did not cut it at all.

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That is one of the major PODs. German Aerospace companies got some huge tax breaks when German pulled out of Eurofighter, as the pull out was an election promise. In OTL the German Defense Ministry was able to save the program but saying that the cancellation fines would be to large, in this the companies did not demand the fines but got tax breaks, less money now more money in the future, as well other things will be happening in the next bit of the timeline.

Would they sell it?

Seeing how the US as refused to sell the F22 to anyone, why would they sell an aircraft that has the same level of capabilities?

AdA said:

Seeing how the US as refused to sell the F22 to anyone, why would they sell an aircraft that has the same level of capabilities?

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The F-23 was actually faster in supercruise and more stealthy. Apparently it was also considered more technologically risky (in other words more advanced).

Delta Force said:

The F-23 was actually faster in supercruise and more stealthy. Apparently it was also considered more technologically risky (in other words more advanced).

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IOW, even less likely to get export clearance, and likely more expensive as well.

Xavier said:

Not bloody likely IMO. I doubt that the F-23 would be any easier to export than the F-22 (i.e., not at all due to the super-duper-high-tech stealth), nor is it likely to be less expensive.

And while Eurofighter getting into more trouble is quite possible, a total failure is rather less so, precisely because the partner nations do need a new fighter. Worst scenario would probably be Spain and/or Italy pulling out & the EF-version seeing service being a cheaper model.

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Eurofighter failure

European Nations in desperate need of aircraft either buy Rafale, Saab Gripen , or new build F16 all of which are off the shelf and not restricted by US government secrets stuff

the British , Italians and Germans do a service life extension on the Tornado incorporating engine and avionic technology from the Failed Eurofighter project and the Tornado , like the F-4 before it becomes an extremely long lived aircraft

Sharkey Ward will be happy as the RAF and FAA have to incrementally upgrade the Harrier and Sea Harrier fleets pending the arrival of the F35, the army air corps buy even more WAH64 apaches ...

If the US is unwilling to sell the F 22 to Japan or Australia or Israel then I can't see the 23 getting an export license.

As to the collapse of the Eurofighter I would agree that some European solution would be used, particularly if the Cold War ends like OTL. I think it would be very hard to sell the taxpayers on the price of a 5th gen fighter in this time frame.

Think about the Horizon/T45 project that kept going even though the Burkes were a proven design that offer more options, the project nations wanted to support the European industrial base.