Which Axis member that gave Germany more disadvantages: Italy or Japan?

Which Axis member that gave Germany more problems?

  • Italy

    Votes: 202 79.8%
  • Japan

    Votes: 51 20.2%

  • Total voters
    253

Rex Romanum

Banned
There are some opinions which stated that, in WWII, both Italy and Japan actually gave Germany more problems rather than advantages.

My question is simple: which one that gave Germany more additional troubles and headaches?

No Axis Italy means no North African front, and no need for occupational troops in Greece. BUT if Italy was neutral or in Allied side, it would be much bigger headaches for Germany.

No Axis Japan means no American involvement over Japanese expansionism, BUT it also means the Allies wouldn't be distracted in Asia.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Neutral Italy would be a route for raw materials, especially since the Allies would know that trying to stop this would lead to Italy joining the war, and Italy's power was constantly over-rated by them.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
America would have entered a year later at most.

Japan also drew of huge amounts of troops and ships and severely shook the morale of the allies, Britian handed Germany three unecessary fronts and the allies a dozen victories.

No competition.
 
There are some opinions which stated that, in WWII, both Italy and Japan actually gave Germany more problems rather than advantages.

My question is simple: which one that gave Germany more additional troubles and headaches?

No Axis Italy means no North African front, and no need for occupational troops in Greece. BUT if Italy was neutral or in Allied side, it would be much bigger headaches for Germany.

No Axis Japan means no American involvement over Japanese expansionism, BUT it also means the Allies wouldn't be distracted in Asia.

IMO, wrong on both counts.
Take Sweeden. Fully neutral, did nothing but good for the german war effort, selling them raw materials up to the near end.
The USA would get involved anyway, with or without Japan. It was a matter of when.
 
Italy, without question. Japan swallowed up the bulk and the best of the Anglo-American fleets, and a good portion of the soldiers as well, plus a significant drain to the allies in general, to almost no cost to Germany. Italy...well, Italy has the dubious distinction of it being arguable that it made more "contributions" that were harmful than helpful.
 

Rex Romanum

Banned
Neutral Italy would be a route for raw materials, especially since the Allies would know that trying to stop this would lead to Italy joining the war, and Italy's power was constantly over-rated by them.
IMO, wrong on both counts.
Take Sweeden. Fully neutral, did nothing but good for the german war effort, selling them raw materials up to the near end.
My prediction is that, with superiority in the Mediterranean, the Allies could bully Italy into joining them, either voluntarily or not.
And Sweden is not a good comparison; different geopolitical situation, etc.
The USA would get involved anyway, with or without Japan. It was a matter of when.
I never said that no Axis Japan means no American involvement at all, but I merely stated that Japan made USA join the war quicker, which undoubtedly did Germany more bad than good.
 
I tend to believe Italy did most damage... No Italian fiasco in Greece=no need for Germany to intervene=Barbarossa launched earlier=Germans reach Moscow and Baku oilfields before winter
 
Is there even a question? Italy, even at its fascist aggressor best, forced Germany to divert resources into theatres the Nazis would rather have left alone for at least a while. At its worst, it provided a weak link in the Axis that was easily exploited by the Allies. (Oops, the Allies invaded Sicily so we quit!). The only possible problem caused by Japan was the entry of the USA into the war, but this probably would have occured later anyway - and when the US was better prepared. Otherwise, the Japanese tied down lots of US and Commonwealth resources that would have been used against Japan, and did an infinititely better job of fighting the allies than Italy as well, with no material help from Germany. Japan could have helped Germany more by declaring war on the USSR, but that's a different matter.
 
I tend to believe Italy did most damage... No Italian fiasco in Greece=no need for Germany to intervene=Barbarossa launched earlier=Germans reach Moscow and Baku oilfields before winter
The intervention in Greece was useful for the Germans; as it squarely secured their flanks around Romania and removed any British dreams of being on the mainland for quite a while; given German problems with Yugoslavia that would have to be addressed anyway; and the fact that both countries were routed and occupied in less than a month, it was hardly the worst use of their resources when the army was sitting around not doing anything

earlier barbarossa is weather asb; also moscow and baku in 1941 are asb unless the soviets collapse politically; too far from german jump off points to supply that far forward in one year
 
Germany

wouldn't the correct answer be Germany?
icon12.gif
 
Japan:

-Brought US into the war 6 months-a year earlier than they would have otherwise. US then focuses on a 'Europe First' strategy until Germany is defeated.

- Stayed neutral against the Soviet Union, allowing Stalin to move more troops from Siberia and Central Asia then he would have otherwise for the Battle of Moscow, a crucial turning point in the war.

- Gave no real material or strategic help to Germany whatsoever.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1487

Is there even a question? Italy, even at its fascist aggressor best, forced Germany to divert resources into theatres the Nazis would rather have left alone for at least a while. At its worst, it provided a weak link in the Axis that was easily exploited by the Allies. (Oops, the Allies invaded Sicily so we quit!). The only possible problem caused by Japan was the entry of the USA into the war, but this probably would have occured later anyway - and when the US was better prepared. Otherwise, the Japanese tied down lots of US and Commonwealth resources that would have been used against Japan, and did an infinititely better job of fighting the allies than Italy as well, with no material help from Germany. Japan could have helped Germany more by declaring war on the USSR, but that's a different matter.

Germany did not actually have to support Italy at all. All they had to do was let Italy tie down the British for as long as possible under their own power while Germany focused their full strength on Britain. It was Hitler's political conceit and desire to bail out Mussolini that caused Germany to get involved where they didn't belong. Italy should be have been allowed to run its own parallel war and succeed or fail on its own, which is pretty much what Italy and Japan were really doing. Italy did not behave as an ally and acted without consultation of their sort-of "ally" Germany, so should have been treated as an associate power instead of an ally that needed to be supported. In fact Germany probably was worse off for having provided Italy with raw materials to run its economy!

Honestly if Italy even dropped out of the war due to defeat by the British, Germany wouldn't suffer and might benefit if she doesn't contribute anything to the Mediterranean. Let Greece kick in Italy's teeth. That will mean the British aren't going to base themselves in Greece. Withhold support to bend Mussolini to Hitler's will, because the incompetence of the Italian military and its political leadership, plus its lack of resources and dependence of the limited resources of Germany were a net drain and should have required a corresponding level of German influence over Italian policy.

Still, it would have probably been a boon to Germany to have Italy tie down the British for a year in the Mediterranean and then have Mussolini overthrown and Italy drop out of the war, with the British having to handle all the Italian prisoners. In the meantime Germany doesn't divert major forces to help Italy and can keep up the anti-shipping and bombing pressure on the UK proper. That also means no Italian front later on, no drain of resources raw or military, and no dealing with the Greek mess and the attendant losses from Crete and the occupation (potentially no need to deal with Yugoslavia because of butterflies).

Overall a net gain for Germany: she gets the benefits of Italian belligerency during a critical period after the fall of France, but losses nothing for having the Italians drop out of the war; in fact its future gain because Germany has more raw materials for her own war effort and less losses.

Frankly Germany has an awful record of managing her allies in both world wars.

Nevertheless, I still think Japan was a worse drain as she contributed nothing until she brought the US in the war, which ensured that 85% of the US war effort was directed against Germany. No matter what the Italians did NOTHING was as bad as bringing the US into the war against the Axis.


earlier barbarossa is weather asb; also moscow and baku in 1941 are asb unless the soviets collapse politically; too far from german jump off points to supply that far forward in one year
I had read the Barbarossa delay was caused by the Luftwaffe not being ready in May, when they could have launched an offensive on the 22nd. They didn't have enough airbases ready because of the focus on Britain and the Mediterranean until May 1941, so it took extra time to make sure the focus was building bases in Poland until June 22nd.
 
Germany did not actually have to support Italy at all. All they had to do was let Italy tie down the British for as long as possible under their own power while Germany focused their full strength on Britain. It was Hitler's political conceit and desire to bail out Mussolini that caused Germany to get involved where they didn't belong. Italy should be have been allowed to run its own parallel war and succeed or fail on its own, which is pretty much what Italy and Japan were really doing. Italy did not behave as an ally and acted without consultation of their sort-of "ally" Germany, so should have been treated as an associate power instead of an ally that needed to be supported. In fact Germany probably was worse off for having provided Italy with raw materials to run its economy!

Honestly if Italy even dropped out of the war due to defeat by the British, Germany wouldn't suffer and might benefit if she doesn't contribute anything to the Mediterranean. Let Greece kick in Italy's teeth. That will mean the British aren't going to base themselves in Greece. Withhold support to bend Mussolini to Hitler's will, because the incompetence of the Italian military and its political leadership, plus its lack of resources and dependence of the limited resources of Germany were a net drain and should have required a corresponding level of German influence over Italian policy.

Still, it would have probably been a boon to Germany to have Italy tie down the British for a year in the Mediterranean and then have Mussolini overthrown and Italy drop out of the war, with the British having to handle all the Italian prisoners. In the meantime Germany doesn't divert major forces to help Italy and can keep up the anti-shipping and bombing pressure on the UK proper. That also means no Italian front later on, no drain of resources raw or military, and no dealing with the Greek mess and the attendant losses from Crete and the occupation (potentially no need to deal with Yugoslavia because of butterflies).

Overall a net gain for Germany: she gets the benefits of Italian belligerency during a critical period after the fall of France, but losses nothing for having the Italians drop out of the war; in fact its future gain because Germany has more raw materials for her own war effort and less losses.

Frankly Germany has an awful record of managing her allies in both world wars.

Nevertheless, I still think Japan was a worse drain as she contributed nothing until she brought the US in the war, which ensured that 85% of the US war effort was directed against Germany. No matter what the Italians did NOTHING was as bad as bringing the US into the war against the Axis.



I had read the Barbarossa delay was caused by the Luftwaffe not being ready in May, when they could have launched an offensive on the 22nd. They didn't have enough airbases ready because of the focus on Britain and the Mediterranean until May 1941, so it took extra time to make sure the focus was building bases in Poland until June 22nd.


you can't have unfriendly forces in greece for any serious period of time; it's too close to ploesti; and hitler was always paranoid about ploesti's security

the med campaign was a good return on investment for the germans; for the pittance of men and aircraft they committed; the British were kept off the continent for 3 years so they could focus on russia
 
America was going to join the war anyway, Roosevelt couldn't let the Nazi's unite Western Europe in a deeply anti-American block. So Italy.
 
no axis italy means no north africa and no yugoslavia/greece, more german troops for the eastern front.

also declaring war against the usa wasnt that stupid, really... they were defacto at war anyway, it just gave the u-boats the good to go to shoot at anything that moves.
 
no axis italy means no north africa and no yugoslavia/greece, more german troops for the eastern front.

also declaring war against the usa wasnt that stupid, really... they were defacto at war anyway, it just gave the u-boats the good to go to shoot at anything that moves.

yugoslavia would happen anyway
 
While I'd agree Italy was a net drain for Hilter, by and large (Greece did not join the allies til Italy delcared war on her, so the threat you are talking about from Greece was... less than you are projecting, if Italy was netrual) It's really hard to figure which was worse. One fact you all keep missing, is until 1943, Hilter was really pushing the logistics commitment of the Eastern front with what he had, meaning Rommel and company really weren't going to go to Russia. Mabye they could have replaced a Italian divison, mabye not. But overall, logistical supply situaiton in 1941 and 1942 pretty much did make those troops ... secondary to requirements, in a lot of ways (plus the Africa Corps did not have the best tanks, and vs. T-34's, what they had was... lunchmeat.) Japan... same story. The US was already waging a defacto war, and FDR was pushing hard for a reason, and in a lot of ways, the 6 months really didn't matter that much (it wasn't til late 1942 that we had any combat divisons really ready for combat, and even then... well, Rommel had a few good days agasint them.) Now, if the US could have stayed out for a year, that'd have been ... different, but realistically... ah. As for the Allied troops tied up in the Pacific, again, for almost the same reason, ironically, those were not going to siginficantly affect the European command. Mabye the Marines could have lopped off a few addtional islands pre Operation Neptune, but realistically, there was not that much extra manpower supportable.

Now, I do agree Italy provided less support than Japan. What most miss, is Japan drew away a LOT of the LANDING Craft for the Allies. (Read up on why Dragoon {Invasion of Southern France} was delayed as much as it was.) The battleships and Carriers invovled in the Pacific would not have been as effective in the Med or North Altantic (Battleships at this point were only good to squish bunkers, and realistically the Allies had plans for that). Carriers, espically in the NA would not have provided much, if any addtional airpower, when you balance logsitics.

Given that the Allied command did _not_ learn from various invasion plans the Marines and Pacific and South West Pacific command learned (to be fair, most of those lessons were learned in late 43 and early 44, which by the time Neptune (the acutal invasion) was well well avadanced) That's a null factor, and the tying up of allied Landing craft in the Pacific theater delayed Dragoon, and kept the Marines out (they'd likey replace some infantry divisons) who had written the book on naval invasions (Remember, only the US had developed even a working THEORY behind contested invasions, no one else had even consdiered it possible. And we had begun testing it. The Marines were brilliant there.)

Overall, Japan did more to help Germany than most belive, but for reasons most do not consider.

Italy was the worst ally of Germany, by this standard.
 
you can't have unfriendly forces in greece for any serious period of time; it's too close to ploesti; and hitler was always paranoid about ploesti's security

the med campaign was a good return on investment for the germans; for the pittance of men and aircraft they committed; the British were kept off the continent for 3 years so they could focus on russia

British aircrafts would have to fly through Bulgaria to hit Ploesti so the only thing Hitler needed to do is fill Bulgaria with a lot of AA artillery...
 

Deleted member 6086

The intervention in Greece was useful for the Germans; as it squarely secured their flanks around Romania and removed any British dreams of being on the mainland for quite a while; given German problems with Yugoslavia that would have to be addressed anyway; and the fact that both countries were routed and occupied in less than a month, it was hardly the worst use of their resources when the army was sitting around not doing anything

Ah the Nazis, when the army's idle, conquer a few weak nations!
 
Japan had almost no effect on the War in Europe besides drawing forces over to the pacific, and hitler was free to declare war on the US (or make some other equally boneheaded decision) at his leisure, Japan certainly had no way to obligate him do doing so. The Italians on the other hand kind of got Germany sucked into a decent number of sticky situations.
 
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