Treaty of Sevres

[Tongera]

Is there any way the treaty of Sevres could be enforced after WW1? Would would the effect be on history after that, in specific, foreign policy and domestic policy of the Turkish Kingdom, Greece, French and Italian Anatolia?

[Snake Featherston]

No. As the Treaty of Sevres mandated a peace far too harsh for the French to enforce (keeping the Germans down and coughing up Reparations is infinitely more important than carving their own portion of Anatolia), for the British suppressing Arab Revolts and the Third Anglo-Afghan War were far more important, and neither Greece nor Armenia had a yellow snowball's chance in Hell of getting half of what they wanted. *If* circumstances conspired to do this, Turkish national identity is destroyed and Anatolia is Balkanized in a dystopian Hellhole. Sevres, as actually intended, would have been the total annihilation of a Turkish state, so we'd be speaking in that ATL of Kurdistan, Cappadocia, Greater Greece, Italia-in-Anatolia, the British Colony of Constantinople and its serial clashes with both Greece and the Soviet Union, and the Kurdish-Armenian Wars and wondering why those Kurds just won't give Armenia their entire state and move west.

[Grimm Reaper]

An enraged Turkey, an Italian base in the Middle East and a Greece crippled by the efforts required...better hope this TL's WWII takes some a series of very different turns.

[TyranicusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Tongera

Is there any way the treaty of Sevres could be enforced after WW1? Would would the effect be on history after that, in specific, foreign policy and domestic policy of the Turkish Kingdom, Greece, French and Italian Anatolia?

Without Britain, France and Italy will give up as well, no one wanted a continuation of Ww1.

Greece could in theory gain concessions from Turkey, but the leadership would want more, not stopping until they reach their ideal borders.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

An enraged Turkey, an Italian base in the Middle East and a Greece crippled by the efforts required...better hope this TL's WWII takes some a series of very different turns.

The best i got is some of the leader of the Turkish Independence Movement to be killed during WW1 or just after, especially Ataturk as he was the ringleader, maybe if he was killed during the Gallipoli campaign and if Greece joins earlier.

What would be the domestic and foreign affects if the Sevres treaty takes effect though?

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

An enraged Turkey, an Italian base in the Middle East and a Greece crippled by the efforts required...better hope this TL's WWII takes some a series of very different turns.

An Italian base in the Middle East means that Christmas has come early for Mussolini. Not only can he try to build a new Roman Empire in Ethiopia, but come WW2 he can become a new Crusader driving south through Vichy Syria to Jerusalem.

Now, with the Italian Army fighting on three fronts (Libya, the Balkans and the Middle East) they can made less progress on each one of them than they did on OTL and thus divert even more German troops to bail them out.

Whilst Britian would have harder fighting in the Middle East, North Africa should be wrapped up sooner and may be the British can hold on on Crete. On the middle point, bring El Alamein forward say three months and thus convince the Vichy French in Morocco and Tunisato remain neutral or be flattened. The Allies could then hit Sicily spring 1943 and not the summer.

I am not saying that an Italian Anatolia will shorten the war, but potentially the Western Allies could liberate more of Europe, and this is without the Turks getting stuck in.

[Clandango]

Italy has a harder time in claiming they hadn't gotten enough land after WWI, though will have trouble with the Greeks over the border in Anatolia as well as having Rome being seen as one of the biggest enemies of Islam, especially if this all meant that the Italians, Serbs, and Greeks went through with the planned partition of Albania. While there will be issues with the American outrage about what was happening to independent states, whether or not the Armenians gain more land(which the Soviets probably would try to invade) I can see the most problems coming from Arabs, who were completely backstabbed. The Caliph/Sultan will be disposed of, Christians who aren't in groups persecuted by the Europeans will end up on the coast, and there might very well be a Greater Syria. Depending on who gets Palestine.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Michael B

An Italian base in the Middle East means that Christmas has come early for Mussolini. Not only can he try to build a new Roman Empire in Ethiopia, but come WW2 he can become a new Crusader driving south through Vichy Syria to Jerusalem.

Now, with the Italian Army fighting on three fronts (Libya, the Balkans and the Middle East) they can made less progress on each one of them than they did on OTL and thus divert even more German troops to bail them out.

Whilst Britian would have harder fighting in the Middle East, North Africa should be wrapped up sooner and may be the British can hold on on Crete. On the middle point, bring El Alamein forward say three months and thus convince the Vichy French in Morocco and Tunisato remain neutral or be flattened. The Allies could then hit Sicily spring 1943 and not the summer.

I am not saying that an Italian Anatolia will shorten the war, but potentially the Western Allies could liberate more of Europe, and this is without the Turks getting stuck in.

There would be just as much of a chance that the Italians would be content with trying to pacify and Italianize their section of Turkey and simply wait around until some revolutionaries against the continued losses against the Turkish insurgency raise barricades or rifles.

[Grimm Reaper]

Michael B, this scenario leaves Italy stronger in the Balkans, having obtained most of Albania a generation sooner while Greece is certainly weaker from the need to guard against the remnant Turkish state constantly.

The most likely potential is German support meaning the collapse of the British position in the Med and the Middle East by the time Barbarossa commences.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by Tongera

The best i got is some of the leader of the Turkish Independence Movement to be killed during WW1 or just after, especially Ataturk as he was the ringleader, maybe if he was killed during the Gallipoli campaign and if Greece joins earlier.

What would be the domestic and foreign affects if the Sevres treaty takes effect though?

For Turkey, the Turkish state and Turkish nationalism are dead and never going to appear in a 20th Century context. Sevres was designed for this purpose and was intended from the first to be the nastiest of all the postwar treaties, because the Christian Great Powers were completely incapable of treating Muslims with the same "respect" they showed say, Germany or Austria and Hungary.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

For Turkey, the Turkish state and Turkish nationalism are dead and never going to appear in a 20th Century context. Sevres was designed for this purpose and was intended from the first to be the nastiest of all the postwar treaties, because the Christian Great Powers were completely incapable of treating Muslims with the same "respect" they showed say, Germany or Austria and Hungary.

I know that the treaty was especially harsh for the Ottomans, but i would like to know about how the new carved territories of Anatolia are going to be treated by all the powers and their resulting foreign policy.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Tongera

I know that the treaty was especially harsh for the Ottomans, but i would like to know about how the new carved territories of Anatolia are going to be treated by all the powers and their resulting foreign policy.

First off, what is it going to be called? Kingdom, Republic, Empire, Sultanate, and of the Ottomans, Turks, Anatolia....

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by Tongera

I know that the treaty was especially harsh for the Ottomans, but i would like to know about how the new carved territories of Anatolia are going to be treated by all the powers and their resulting foreign policy.

Just like all the other colonial territories: ruthless pillaging, draconian rule, mass gunfire to anyone that objects, a deliberate suppression of anyone who dares speak the name "Turk."

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by Clandango

First off, what is it going to be called? Kingdom, Republic, Empire, Sultanate, and of the Ottomans, Turks, Anatolia....

There's no one territory. You have Greek and Italian colonies, the UK controlling Constantinople and the probable furor with the Greeks over this, you have Kurdistan, French Cappadocia, Greater Armenia......people really like starting threads on Sevres without the least idea of what Sevres actually mandated. That people speak of any kind of singular Turkish state at all shows they don't.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

There's no one territory. You have Greek and Italian colonies, the UK controlling Constantinople and the probable furor with the Greeks over this, you have Kurdistan, French Cappadocia, Greater Armenia......people really like starting threads on Sevres without the least idea of what Sevres actually mandated. That people speak of any kind of singular Turkish state at all shows they don't.

I'm sorry if i didn't mention the other territories, but i knew they were there and i would like to know how it could effect future diplomacy.

[Grimm Reaper]

OTL Italy decided that a slice of Turkey wasn't worth the trouble involved and France twice conceded territory at Syria's expense. Greece and Armenia were unable to hold territory in Anatolia.

None of this suggests that harsher terms would have been remotely pleasant for any parties involved.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

OTL Italy decided that a slice of Turkey wasn't worth the trouble involved and France twice conceded territory at Syria's expense. Greece and Armenia were unable to hold territory in Anatolia.

None of this suggests that harsher terms would have been remotely pleasant for any parties involved.

Would be interesting to see how it effected the Germans should the Nazis come to power. Would they see supporting the Turks as even more beneficial?

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Clandango

Would be interesting to see how it effected the Germans should the Nazis come to power. Would they see supporting the Turks as even more beneficial?

Would the Turks recipricate though?

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Tongera

Would the Turks recipricate though?

At least some of them would, which is all that would matter.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Clandango

At least some of them would, which is all that would matter.

Good point, but i have another one: Would the turkish government recipricate though? Final decision is with them (unless a military coup).