The Age of al-Andalus (Age of the Andulus 2.0)

[XanXar]

Age of al-Andalus

Prologue: The Yemeni and the Berber.

　
　
Art depiction of the Arab conquest of Iberia Circa.500AH

It was the days of legends, the Umayyad Caliphate was near its peak. The Age of Antiquity was over, a new one had taken its place. For Centuries the forces of the Orient and Occident were at battle, never a true victor. These forces were embodied, in the 6th century, by two great powers, the Byzantines and the Sassanids. Both were the reincarnation of ancient empires, and both thought of themselves as rightful lords of the Mashriq*. But as both forces grew weary, a new force came into the play.

They were the Arabians (Or Arabs), a formerly divided and fractured society. They came from the desert, conquering everything in sight, in the name of their new religion, Islam. Sassanid Persia would be the first to fall, following the lands of the levant. After these conquests it looked like Islam was going to fizzle out, only being a temporary nuisance. However this was not to be the case, the four 'Rightly Guided' caliphs were to be followed by the Umayyad dynasty, that would conquer the Turkic plains and the Maghreb.

But now we come to our story, this is the story of Musa ibn Nusayr and Tariq ibn Ziyad, If Emir Abd al-Aziz I is known as the father of the nation, these two must be the granfathers. Musa was son of a freed slave, he had gone through the ranks of the Caliphate and had become governer of Ifriqiya. Tariq, meawhile, was a freed slave himself, a berber. The two together had already conquered the Maghreb in the name of Dar es-Salam**, and now the two would go on to their greatest feat, conquering Iberia.

Many legends surround the conquest, from the lure of Count Julians treasure, to the Rape of a young princess, whatever the true story it was a time of legends. The story goes that Ibn Ziyad led a force of 10 - 15,000 pass the straits, and the Iberians did not attempt to flee or fight back, believing the ships were trading ships. The Iberians were helpless, once again another nation was to fall under the abode of Islam.

The land was ruled by the Visigoths, also known as the Vandals. The Visigothic king, Roderic had prepared an army to face off against the Umayyads (Or Moors, a later slur for Ishbylians). The two armies met near the Guadelete river, where the decisive battle would take place.
Roderic's army were completely routed, loss was certain. The certainty then became fact when Musa ibn Nusair came with re-inforcements. Roderic was killed at the battle. The Vsigothic kingdom was gone, what replaced it was the province of the Caliphate, al-Andalus.

This was only the beginning, the beginning of a new age, The Age of al-Andalus.

　
*Meaning East in Arabic refering to the Levant
**Meaning the Islamic world.

[Patukov]

I will certainly be following this

[God-Eater of the Marshes]

I'll be following. Though you forgot the "*"s. Like you didn't translate "Mashriq".

Anyway, good stuff, from what I can see.

[XanXar]

Originally Posted by God-Eater of the Marshes

I'll be following. Though you forgot the "*"s. Like you didn't translate "Mashriq".

Anyway, good stuff, from what I can see.

Dammit! I always forget them.

[XanXar]

Bump!
?Filter

[Cuāuhtemōc]

When is the next update!

[XanXar]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

When is the next update!

I currently have no access to Microsoft word or other writing programmes, so probably in a few days.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

How Arabized of a place will this Al-Andalus be?

[MNP]

"Also known as the Vandals" ? I guess you're going with Vandalia-Vandalus-Andalus.

Well, roll on either way!

[XanXar]

Originally Posted by MNP

"Also known as the Vandals" ? I guess you're going with Vandalia-Vandalus-Andalus.

Well, roll on either way!

Yeah, you got me there, however do wonder how the word ''Vandal'' became a synonym for trouble-maker.

Originally Posted by Cu?uhtem?c

How Arabized of a place will this Al-Andalus be?

Definitely not as much as OTL al-Andalus. Arabic will continue to be the language of the elite (or at least the Muslim elite), it will most likely die out in the region somewhere along the line. I'd compare to Latin in western Europe.
The culture would be a hybrid of Arab and Latin cultures, akin to how Modern Turkey is a cross between Persian and Greek Cultures.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by XanXar

Yeah, you got me there, however do wonder how the word ''Vandal'' became a synonym for trouble-maker.

Because they were ransacking "barbarians".

Originally Posted by XanXar

Definitely not as much as OTL al-Andalus. Arabic will continue to be the language of the elite (or at least the Muslim elite), it will most likely die out in the region somewhere along the line. I'd compare to Latin in western Europe.
The culture would be a hybrid of Arab and Latin cultures, akin to how Modern Turkey is a cross between Persian and Greek Cultures.

May I suggest that their language is basically between Spanish and Mozarabic?

Also, Turkey isn't really a cross between Persian and Greek culture. It's more a cross between Persian and Turkic language and culture, Greek and Turkish ethnicity, with the Arab religion. But that doesn't have anything to do with al-Andalus anyway, just your comment.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by XanXar

Yeah, you got me there, however do wonder how the word ''Vandal'' became a synonym for trouble-maker.

Didn't the ethymology of Andalusia as Vandalusia was debunked one century ago?

It would be more close of the gothic expression of "Land's inheritence" or "Lots of lands" (something like Landa lauts) that would have turned in Al-Andalus.

Visigoths named their kingdom "Gothica sors" "Gothic Lot" so it's probably more fitting than Vandalusia (critically for peoples that made only a quick step in Spain long before the Arabs).

It became synonymous because barbarian were ev0l bastard while romans were incarnate goodness and Loyal Good people, same thing for "barbarian" for atrocities, "gothic" for mocking "french work" (now known as Gothic architecture), "Ostrogoth" for a stupid, etc.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

May I suggest that their language is basically between Spanish and Mozarabic?

Mozarabic IS Spanish. Just a medieval dialect of Muslim Spain but nothing enough distinguishable from Asturian or Bardulian/Castillan.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Mozarabic IS Spanish. Just a medieval dialect of Muslim Spain but nothing enough distinguishable from Asturian or Bardulian/Castillan.

I thought Wikipedia listed it in the same family as Aragonese which is in a different branch of the Romance languages?

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

I thought Wikipedia listed it in the same family as Aragonese which is in a different branch of the Romance languages?

Yeah, and Wikipedia considers Normand as a separate language than French as well.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Mozarabic IS Spanish. Just a medieval dialect of Muslim Spain but nothing enough distinguishable from Asturian or Bardulian/Castillan.

It's not mutually intelligible with Spanish.

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

I thought Wikipedia listed it in the same family as Aragonese which is in a different branch of the Romance languages?

Never mention Wikipedia to LSCatilina unless you want to be attacked by a crazy Frenchman .

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

It's not mutually intelligible with Spanish.

I'm sorry? It was.

Medieval northern dialects and southern were so not mutually intelligble that people could exchange letters, concersation and emigrate easily from one point or another.

Also, while mozarabic languages (and communauties) disappeared by acculturation, they survived quite well in the north , at the contact of other iberic romance dialects.

Fracnsico Baca Simonet would be a good start (having a critial eye on his position about Muslim oppression that, if real, is exaggerated)
EDIT : Pierre Guichard made a short introductive article, avaible on net, but it's in french only.

Never mention Wikipedia to LSCatilina unless you want to be attacked by a crazy Frenchman .

Yeah, of course, because Wikipedia is always right and people that say when it's bullshit is crazy...
I don't want to be rude, but the consensus now, is about "romance dialect of Al-Andalus". DIALECT. I didn't saw the wikipedia page, but if it class Mozarabic as a language it's a minoritary position mainly, supported more in non-historic circles than the contrary. The same for Picard or Normand language.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

I'm sorry? It was.

Medieval northern dialects and southern were so not mutually intelligble that people could exchange letters, concersation and emigrate easily from one point or another.

Also, while mozarabic languages (and communauties) disappeared by acculturation, they survived quite well in the north , at the contact of other iberic romance dialects.

After conquest, or before? I'd imagine that nobles within the Latinic Christian kingdoms would be using Latin, not Asturian or Mozarabic. OR DID YOU LIE TO ME .

Also do you consider Portuguese the same language as Spanish?

I guess I don't know enough about Old Asturian and Old Castilian to say if it was mutually intelligible, but what I meant when I said between Spanish and Mozarabic is that it would have an Arabization between that of Spanish and Mozarabic (since I'm assuming this al-Andalus takes control of everything south of the Pyrenees). And I meant modern Spanish, so the grammar would be between that and Mozarabic/Ladino, plus I believe modern Spanish is more Arabized than Old Castilian which was still going through the process of assimilating the 'Andalusians'.

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Yeah, of course, because Wikipedia is always right and people that say when it's bullshit is crazy...
I don't want to be rude, but have you some extanded (probably more than my limited one) on Mozarabic than wikipedia article?

I was joking. Your skepticism in Wikipedia usually has ground to it.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

After conquest, or before? I'd imagine that nobles within the Christian kingdoms would be using Latin, not Asturian or Mozarabic. OR DID YOU LIE TO ME .

Before the conquest, you didn't had a romance LANGUAGE in Iberic Spain, but Ibero-Romance.

Still more or less intelligible with other romance proto-languages (not sure if it's the correct word) as Gallo-Roman or Italo-Roman. Romance languages are usually considered rising in the IX century with (by exemple) the Strasbourg's oath being the last text in Gallo-Romance.

Latin was a communication and savant language, as well we use english in this board. It wasn't they were unfamiliar with Latin but used spanish dialect such as Asturian, Castillan, Aragonese or distinct languages as Galician, Basque, Occitano-Catalan in the concerned aeras because it was more easy to command a population that didn't understood Latin anymore (see Council of Tours).

Also do you consider Portuguese the same language as Spanish?

No. It's based on Old Galician, as modern Galician.

I guess I don't know enough about Old Asturian and Old Castilian to say if it was mutually intelligible, but what I meant when I said between Spanish and Mozarabic is that it would have an Arabization between that of Spanish and Mozarabic

(since I'm assuming this al-Andalus takes control of everything south of the Pyrenees)

Taking control is a heavy word, not really fitting the reality.

IEverything south of Pyrenees was
-Or under direct Christian hands.
-Or part of tagras with relativly autonomous Christian or Muslim hands (hence the periodic revolts)
-Or sort of "neutral zone" without real power or population, because of period raids from Leon or from Al-Andalus.

Finally, and even for the "core" Al-Andalus (more or less Southern half of Portugal, Valencian country, today's Andalusia and La Mancha), you had periodical revolts.

Culturally, indeed the mozarabic disappeared from southern Al-Andalus. You have the anecdote of an arab wali wanting to understand a latin inscription in the late IX century and hardly finding ONE old christian able to understand it.

As well, a complain of a bishop of Toledo about how young people were unable to read and understand correctly latin.

Probably the romance language survived more longer (critically due to the high number of Christians, it was speculated that 3/4 of the population was up to 900's) but eventually run out and playing little role in the linguistic change of Algraves or Valencian country.

On the other hand, the Asturian dialect, far from expanding like Aragonese dialect (that expanded in heavily arabized aeras), Galician or Occitano-Catalan, remained cloistred in the mountain and only expanded in limited part of Duero Basin when all the conquered lands didn't used it.

.

And I meant modern Spanish, so the grammar would be between that and Mozarabic-Ladino

Ladino isn't Mozarabic, as Shuadit isn't Provencal.

But, if we want to talk about Ladino, I have a quite weird anecodte about how it's mutually intelligible : one day a spanish priest had the idea of convert Salonica to catholicism. He was hanged by local population because they believed he was a Salonikan jew that converted himself. After all, only them can speak such a language.

All right, more tragic than actually weird, but you know what I mean : even after 350 years of separation, you had still and intellegibility.

plus I believe modern Spanish is more Arabized than Old Castilian which was still going through the process of assimilating the 'Andalusians'.

And? I don't see your point about "between Mozarabic and Spanish". Or you talked about medieval languages, or it doesn't make much sense as talking "between rhenish romance and Modern French".

As you said, the modern languages were under so much influence (including other dialects that were the base of its elaboration) that we can't really compare them this way.

[Zuvarq]

I guess I'll shut up about languages since you are more knowledgeable on the subject than me and I don't want to derail XanXar's thread.

But for the other things (which do relate a bit more):

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Taking control is a heavy word, not really fitting the reality.

IEverything south of Pyrenees was
-Or under direct Christian hands.
-Or part of tagras with relativly autonomous Christian or Muslim hands (hence the periodic revolts)
-Or sort of "neutral zone" without real power or population, because of period raids from Leon or from Al-Andalus.

Finally, and even for the "core" Al-Andalus (more or less Southern half of Portugal, Valencian country, today's Andalusia and La Mancha), you had periodical revolts.

Well isn't this the Age of al-Andalus? It's going to be a bit of an al-Andalus-'wank', right? I believe that over some centuries they could integrate even the areas north of the 'Green Spanish' mountains. Of course in the mountains themselves they will always speak Asturian, Basque, and the like until the modern age.

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

Culturally, indeed the mozarabic disappeared from southern Al-Andalus. You have the anecdote of an arab wali wanting to understand a latin inscription in the late IX century and hardly finding ONE old christian able to understand it.

As well, a complain of a bishop of Toledo about how young people were unable to read and understand correctly latin.

Meaning everyone knew and used a dialect of Arabic?