An Islamic *Russian state?

Faeelin

Banned
Doing a bit of reading about the Volga Bulgars got me thinking.

A lot of Russia (or the former USSR, I suppose), was once ruled by Muslim states. the Volga Bulgars, the Golden Horde and its successor states, etc.

How could we have an Islamic state (bonus points if it does not arise because the Rus convert) dominating the region instead?
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Faeelin said:
Doing a bit of reading about the Volga Bulgars got me thinking.

A lot of Russia (or the former USSR, I suppose), was once ruled by Muslim states. the Volga Bulgars, the Golden Horde and its successor states, etc.

How could we have an Islamic state (bonus points if it does not arise because the Rus convert) dominating the region instead?
Click to expand...

A more successful Arab invasion of Constantinople would do, though if you really want an Islamic Russia, then their center of power should be in the Volga river, not the Dnieper.
 
Russian

Russian

In a hundred years or so most of the population of Russia will be Islamic.
That will happen in a natural way - due to demographics. The Muslims have more children.

MarshalBraginsky said:
A more successful Arab invasion of Constantinople would do, though if you really want an Islamic Russia, then their center of power should be in the Volga river, not the Dnieper.
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Or a more successful Arab invasion of the Khazar Khanate would do the thing.
I mean total annexation and even further advancement of the victorious Arab Muslim armies up to the Baltics.
So when the Variangian Rus moves to Ladoga, Novgorod and Kiev they would meet there a firmly established Islam and most naturally convert.
 

Stormy Sky

I was actually thinking about this the other day. I play Europa Unversalis 3 and apparently it's possible to united Russia as the Golden Horde, creating an Islamic Russia.

I think its very possible, there were lots of Islamic states Russia during the 15th century and earlier. Any number of them other than Muscovy could have united the region. In fact if any other of them did say even just Novgorod, Russia would have been radically different (and most likely for the better) so it's perfectly reasonably to think the Islam could have prevailed.

An early POD you could have is Vladimir the Great converting to Islam instead of Christianity. Maybe a few more Byzantine defeats around that time could convince him. Constantinople doesn't necessarily have to fall to achieve this. But you might want to go with the Qazan khanate or Golden Horde to have a later POD thereby limiting the butterflies.

Has anyone done a timline for this? Because I think this would make an amazing TL. I can see the Teutonic Knights, and Poland-Lithuania remaining far more prevalent in Europe if the Muslims are are attacking from the East as well as the Ottomans in the Balkans!
 
Clandango

Clandango

The Ottomans did tend to go enslaving Russians and Caucasians every year. Perhaps they decided to just go all out and make the area into pasture lands?
 
Russian

Russian

Simreeve said:
Or the Khazars themselves adopting Islam rather than Judaism in the first place?
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Ye, that might help.
But the Khazars were weak. Their control of the tribes on the territory of (future) 'Russia' was more about taking the tribute and leaving them alone.

So the great Arab Caliphate stretching to the Baltics would be much better. :D
 

Wendell

Have the wars between the Golden Horde and the Russians go better. Perhaps as a part of this, there is more stable and onsistent leadership among the Golen Horde at just the right time. They won't rule the Baltic, but I suspect that they could end up ruling the bulk of OTL 2012 Russia, with perhaps bits of neighboring countries added for good measure. Another way to do this ight be to have Timur go north/west, instead of focusing on the Ottomans and India.
 

General Tirpitz

Russian said:
In a hundred years or so most of the population of Russia will be Islamic.
That will happen in a natural way - due to demographics. The Muslims have more children.
Click to expand...
This assumes that amount of non-Muslim Russian population drops sharply while Muslim population (10-15 millions) multiplies dramatically. Muslims have higher TFR than other Russians but the difference isn't actually so great (for Chechens 2.2 and for Russians 1.5).
 

XanXar

Wendell said:
Have the wars between the Golden Horde and the Russians go better. Perhaps as a part of this, there is more stable and onsistent leadership among the Golen Horde at just the right time. They won't rule the Baltic, but I suspect that they could end up ruling the bulk of OTL 2012 Russia, with perhaps bits of neighboring countries added for good measure. Another way to do this ight be to have Timur go north/west, instead of focusing on the Ottomans and India.
Click to expand...

Actually if you avoid Timurs war with the Golden horde, they could very well prosper and conquer the Russ states.
 
Russian

Russian

General Tirpitz said:
This assumes that amount of non-Muslim Russian population drops sharply while Muslim population (10-15 millions) multiplies dramatically. Muslims have higher TFR than other Russians but the difference isn't actually so great (for Chechens 2.2 and for Russians 1.5).
Click to expand...

I do not know where you take your figures from.
I am speaking about what I see with my own eyes. The 'Russian non-Muslims' have 1 kid per family (average of course). The 'Russian Muslims' have 2,5 kids per family.
And the Muslims have stronger sense of unity and belonging. As opposed to Russian non-Muslims.
I am not saying that majority of Russian population will be Muslim.
I am saying that the strongest most influential (maybe ruling) religion in this country will be Islam.

Wendell said:
Have the wars between the Golden Horde and the Russians go better. Perhaps as a part of this, there is more stable and onsistent leadership among the Golen Horde at just the right time. They won't rule the Baltic, but I suspect that they could end up ruling the bulk of OTL 2012 Russia, with perhaps bits of neighboring countries added for good measure. Another way to do this ight be to have Timur go north/west, instead of focusing on the Ottomans and India.
Click to expand...
That might held Russia a little longer under Islamic control.
But that would not make Russia Muslim.
 

Stormy Sky

Elfwine said:
So . . . continue the situation prior to Timur breaking it up.
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That doesn't work either, you need more dominant and hands on Islamic influence otherwise it just stays Orthodox Christian and divided. Maybe the Golden Horde change policy or defeat Muscovy and a savvy khan decides to rule the Russian people more directly? After converting them of course.
 

Delvestius

Banned
RGB said:
They had no interest in stomping out Orthodoxy, and the Metropolitan was in Vladimir, not Novgorod.
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Interest or not, it may of happened. And Novgorod was the cradle of Russian culture after the Mongol invasions. If Novgorod fell, then Russia today would be rather different.
 
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