Sloped Panzer IV armor?

[Shtudmuffin]

So, I was just recently looking up different variants of the Panzer IV tank used by the Germans in WWII, and I wondered-did they ever, at some point, consider the construction of a Panzer IV variant with sloped armor? Did they ever produce any prototypes?

[Color-Copycat]

Not as far as I know. I think in the end they were better off ultimately spending time and money developing the Panther. A slope turret variant of the Pz IV would've ended up looking superficially a lot like a Panther. And after all, the Panther did have the turret capable of mounting the upgunned 75 mm gun too.

[MattII]

The Panzer IV was, however, a debugged design, while the Panther was never completely so.

[aktarian]

No. When it was developed this idea wasn't in circulation. Even successor (which would eventually become Tiger) wasn't sloped.

[Nietzsche]

A Panzer IV with sloped armour, and armed with the 7.5 cm KwK 40 would've been the best compromise between ease of production and usefulness on the battlefield. The IV was already an amazingly versatile and battle-proven design. Giving it sloped armour is mere icing on the cake. It won't win the war(well, highly unlikely to) but it will likely give the Germans more time. Even better if they stop production on those super-heavy monster tanks.

[Richter von Manthofen]

It would have been a totally different design. A sloped Pz IV would have been a separat entity and not just a modification.

Eventually the Pz IV design had reached a point where it could not have been made better - engine hull and gun ahad reached their limitations.

[MattII]

It would likely have used the same drive-train though, which at was pretty reliable.

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Richter von Manthofen

It would have been a totally different design. A sloped Pz IV would have been a separat entity and not just a modification.

Eventually the Pz IV design had reached a point where it could not have been made better - engine hull and gun ahad reached their limitations.

A PzIV with sloped armour would've been more than sufficient to carry Germany into early 1945. It would be just as deadly against allied armour as the standard PzIV with the 7.5 cm KwK 40, and it would be far more of a fair fight against the Soviets and their own armour.

[Anderman]

Originally Posted by Richter von Manthofen

It would have been a totally different design. A sloped Pz IV would have been a separat entity and not just a modification.

Eventually the Pz IV design had reached a point where it could not have been made better - engine hull and gun ahad reached their limitations.

Indeed a Panzer IV with slopped armor would be much heavier that´s the reason why this project was stopped

http://www.panzerbaer.de/models/35_n...iv_w1466-a.htm

[Shtudmuffin]

Originally Posted by Anderman

Indeed a Panzer IV with slopped armor would be much heavier that´s the reason why this project was stopped

http://www.panzerbaer.de/models/35_n...iv_w1466-a.htm

How exactly would it be heavier? It would only be changing the shape of the armor. Certainly it couldn't have affected the tank's weight that much.

[MattII]

Originally Posted by Anderman

Indeed a Panzer IV with slopped armor would be much heavier that´s the reason why this project was stopped

If you're going to make statements like that you're going to want to back them up with actual proof, not just some modelling website.

[KACKO]

Originally Posted by MattII

If you're going to make statements like that you're going to want to back them up with actual proof, not just some modelling website.

Well. Maybe he has a point here. What if Germans built regular Pz IV (maybe from lighter/ cheaper not hardened materials and put around sloped armor like on the model from provided modeling website.
Reason could be purely technical. Save time on design, as new Pz IV with slopped armor could use only the chassis and whole front upper structure up to the engine needed to be redesigned. So easier way would be probably to put sloped armor on original tank. And it is not so hard to weld extra metal plates on something. Interesting thing is that that solution could add extra protection to crew against.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

Not as far as I know. I think in the end they were better off ultimately spending time and money developing the Panther. A slope turret variant of the Pz IV would've ended up looking superficially a lot like a Panther. And after all, the Panther did have the turret capable of mounting the upgunned 75 mm gun too.

Panther was a rip-off from T34. They begun producing it too late and didn't have much time to correct faults. Had they begun in late 1941 it may have been worth doing it.

[deamy]

According to one site there were two project:

Panzer III/IV Einheitsfahrgestell
There were two attempts at developing a Panzer IV with sloped armour:

1. A Krupp project from late 1942/early 1943 (probably the one mentioned) which was basically a Panzer IV with sloped armour.

2. An early 1944 Panzer III/IV Einheitsfahrgestell project, which combined automotive parts of the Panzer III into a Panzer IV with improved running gear (6 larger roadwheels on each side).


http://panzerivtheworkhorse.devhub.c...chassis-iiiiv/





And there was a Panther hull with a Pz4 turret:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=47&t=176426

Originally Posted by b12ox

Panther was a rip-off from T34. They begun producing it too late and didn't have much time to correct faults. Had they begun in late 1941 it may have been worth doing it.

I'm sure you know but anyway:

This was the "T-34 rip-off" by Daimler Benz. I believe Guderian wanted it. It lost the competition to the Panther though.

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/...02%28DB%29.htm

[AdA]

The PzIV was a 20tons tank. By 1942 it was facing tanks in the 30 tons class. No matter how much it improves it's still a lightweight in middleweight fight. A 50% bigger tank was required, the Panther ended up being a 100% heavier.
Plus if slopping the armour without making a whole new tank is probably hard. The Brits never got to it. See the Comet. They had to design a totally new tank to get it to slope...

[Shtudmuffin]

Originally Posted by AdA

The PzIV was a 20tons tank. By 1942 it was facing tanks in the 30 tons class.

Actually, the T34 (the Panzer's main competitor on the battlefield) was only 1.5 tonnes heavier than the Panzer IV. Sloped armor on the Panzer would likely even that out. Unless there were other tanks that engaged the Panzer IV as much as the T34 did and weighed much more, it seems to me that sloping a Panzer IV's armor would make it quite a match for its contemporaries.

[AdA]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

Actually, the T34 (the Panzer's main competitor on the battlefield) was only 1.5 tonnes heavier than the Panzer IV. Sloped armor on the Panzer would likely even that out. Unless there were other tanks that engaged the Panzer IV as much as the T34 did and weighed much more, it seems to me that sloping a Panzer IV's armor would make it quite a match for its contemporaries.

Original PzIV 20t, 22 in later models, original T34 26,5t. The PzIV is not in the same weight class as the T34, the Sherman or the Cromwell.

[von Adler]

It would probably look a lot like the VK.3002 prototype (mostly a copy of the T-34 except for the suspension and the gun).

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/...02%28DB%29.htm

[Shtudmuffin]

Originally Posted by AdA

Original PzIV 20t, 22 in later models, original T34 26,5t. The PzIV is not in the same weight class as the T34, the Sherman or the Cromwell.

But the Panzer IV got heavier later on due to a bigger gun (I think). If sloped armor made the Panzer IV heavier, as many people here stated it would, then the Pzkpfw IV would almost certainly come close to, or even match, its competitors in terms of weight.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by deamy

I'm sure you know but anyway:

This was the "T-34 rip-off" by Daimler Benz. I believe Guderian wanted it. It lost the competition to the Panther though.

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/...02%28DB%29.htm

I am not saying blow by blow. The Panther was still designed, whichever version by the study of the T34. Hull design and the wider running gear to combat the terrain more effectivly. There were other details taken from the T34 and employed in the Panther though forgot them.