Challenge: Female Soldiers in the 1700's

Napoleon53 · Jun 11, 2012

Basically, who doesn't think women line infantry regiments in the 1700's-1800's would be awesome?

How could there be women officially in a Eurasian army? Africa doesn't count because they didn't have many actual armies and they had the Dahomie Regiments in the Barbary States. You can choose any region in Eurasia, from Japan to Britain. Feel free to butterfly. The POD doesn't need to be in be 1700's, but the 1700's have to be recognizable, though, so try not to suggest turning early European/Asian civilization inside-out. Say, make the change happen only after 1200 or 1300. And no, I don't plan on a TL, this is just for fun.

Enlighten me!

Grey Wolf · Jun 11, 2012

Maybe if Joan of Arc doesn't get captured and burnt at the stake she could start a trend?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

LSCatilina · Jun 11, 2012

Grey Wolf said:
Maybe if Joan of Arc doesn't get captured and burnt at the stake she could start a trend?

1) You had other women in arms in the same period. It was already a trend.

2) The OP was about female soldiers. Joan of Arc wasn't much of a soldier than a leader and most of all a symbol put in the battlefield.

Grey Wolf · Jun 11, 2012

LSCatilina said:
1) You had other women in arms in the same period. It was already a trend.

2) The OP was about female soldiers. Joan of Arc wasn't much of a soldier than a leader and most of all a symbol put in the battlefield.

It was a symbol that I was taking her to start a trend

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

aktarian · Jun 11, 2012

Maybe Black Death somehow kills proportionally more men than women, screwing the gender ratios. When it comes to picking up the pieces later rulers simply don't have enough men to fill their armies and start recruiting women.

It would require some serious attitude adjustments though...... It's possible that if this happens women also push for (and get) more equality so once gender ratios ballance again these units are not simply disbanded and everything returns to pre-BD status.

LSCatilina · Jun 11, 2012

Grey Wolf said:
It was a symbol that I was taking her to start a trend

As said, Joan of Arc wasn't that of an isolated event, as you had other women-in-arms. She happened to be part of a trend with Piéronne la Bretonne with one of her companion ( an unamed woman).

It was caused by the acknowledgment by both universities and Church of miraculies or women prophetess, with the combination of a France in state of war since 1337.

Fighting women aren't totally anecdotic in France : Françoise de Cezelli during Wars of Religion is another good exemple. Just you don't have the base to make symbolical leaders a start for woman acceptance as soldiers : these women or did were in position of power already, or more or less renounced to their feminity for the fight and returned to it and its traditional cultural "duties" once ended.

Peg Leg Pom · Jun 11, 2012

This needs either a revolution or a dire emergency to happen, given the attitudes of the time. come to think of it I seem to remember reading that Revolutionary France did for a short time have womens regiments.

My proposition id this.

A small Western European country, possibly 1 of the German states feals threatened by Revolutioary France and mobilises all its reserves to combat the threat. In order to protect parts of the country not directly threatend by France and release men for the field army a number of militia units are raised comprised of unmarried women. When the French attack the states army is badly beaten and out of shear desperation some of the women's militia are sent as replacements. During the campaign the women do well and even though the French do over run the country it becomes a tradition to maintain at least 1 womens militia regiment, for ceremonial duties. This regiment is manned (or rather womened) by the unmarried daughters of the aristocracy and local gentry.

YLi · Jun 11, 2012

The Shun Dynasty takes over China.

[/thread]

kuroda · Jun 11, 2012

Napoleon53 said:
Basically, who doesn't think women line infantry regiments in the 1700's-1800's would be awesome? How could there be women officially in a Eurasian army? Africa doesn't count because they didn't have many actual armies and they had the Dahomie Regiments in the Barbary States.

I'm interested in the question and its answers, but right now I'm just gonna be a bee-yacht and say, Africa was full of what its historians, archeologists, and anthropologists considered 'actual armies', so unless you're using an idiosyncratic definition of the term in order to exclude Africa for some other reason, I'm disappointed; and also, 'Amazon' regiments from Benin serving in the Maghreb would be a surprise to me, so surprising I might eat my shirt in sheer confoundedment.

Napoleon53 · Jun 11, 2012

kuroda said:
I'm interested in the question and its answers, but right now I'm just gonna be a bee-yacht and say, Africa was full of what its historians, archeologists, and anthropologists considered 'actual armies', so unless you're using an idiosyncratic definition of the term in order to exclude Africa for some other reason, I'm disappointed; and also, 'Amazon' regiments from Benin serving in the Maghreb would be a surprise to me, so surprising I might eat my shirt in sheer confoundedment.

Oh, I meant that they didn't have uniforms, plenty of identical guns, and such. I want UNIFORMED Napoleonic chicks.

Asia had uniforms, too, of a different kind, but still uniforms.

Peg Leg Pom said:
This needs either a revolution or a dire emergency to happen, given the attitudes of the time. come to think of it I seem to remember reading that Revolutionary France did for a short time have womens regiments.

My proposition id this.

A small Western European country, possibly 1 of the German states feals threatened by Revolutioary France and mobilises all its reserves to combat the threat. In order to protect parts of the country not directly threatend by France and release men for the field army a number of militia units are raised comprised of unmarried women. When the French attack the states army is badly beaten and out of shear desperation some of the women's militia are sent as replacements. During the campaign the women do well and even though the French do over run the country it becomes a tradition to maintain at least 1 womens militia regiment, for ceremonial duties. This regiment is manned (or rather womened) by the unmarried daughters of the aristocracy and local gentry.

aktarian said:
Maybe Black Death somehow kills proportionally more men than women, screwing the gender ratios. When it comes to picking up the pieces later rulers simply don't have enough men to fill their armies and start recruiting women.

It would require some serious attitude adjustments though...... It's possible that if this happens women also push for (and get) more equality so once gender ratios ballance again these units are not simply disbanded and everything returns to pre-BD status.

These seem the most likely to me so far, especially Peg's.

Interesting convo, guys! Keep it up.

mrmandias · Jun 11, 2012

As a rule women are severely biologically outclassed in any kind of warfare that involves hand to hand combat or carrying large burdens for long distances, which is going to be the case with 17th and 18th C. armies.

Napoleon53 · Jun 11, 2012

mrmandias said:
As a rule women are severely biologically outclassed in any kind of warfare that involves hand to hand combat or carrying large burdens for long distances, which is going to be the case with 17th and 18th C. armies.

Sexist!

I kid. I see your point, but I think they can carry a musket and a backpack. True, they couldn't be forlorn hopes, grenadiers, or heavy cavalry, but they could be skirmishers, scouts, light infantry, lancers, and dragoons.

RGB · Jun 11, 2012

Napoleon53 said:
Sexist!

I kid. I see your point, but I think they can carry a musket and a backpack. True, they couldn't be forlorn hopes, grenadiers, or heavy cavalry, but they could be skirmishers, scouts, light infantry, lancers, and dragoons.

There are examples of individual women serving in the Napoleonic armies, and there were plenty of well, children, by today's standards, serving in the cavalry as well, some with distinction (as young as 14 in some cases and for junior officers like cornets).

That said, if you think that the weapons of the time were any lighter than that of the middle ages/renaissance, you'd be in for a surprise.

A musket and bayonet combo is 11-12 pounds (4+ kilos!) which makes it noticeably heavier than any two-handed swords or halberds meant for actual battle. Even a period lance is about 3 kilos!

Add in the greatcoat and the pack...and the total equipment carried would probably be pretty impressively heavy.

Napoleon53 · Jun 11, 2012

RGB said:
There are examples of individual women serving in the Napoleonic army, and there were plenty of well, children, by today's standards, serving in the cavalry as well, some with distinction (as young as 14 in some cases and for junior officers like cornets).

That said, if you think that the weapons of the time were any lighter than that of the middle ages/renaissance, you'd be in for a surprise.

A musket and bayonet combo is 11-12 pounds (4+ kilos!) which makes it noticeably heavier than any two-handed swords or halberds meant for actual battle. Even a period lance is about 3 kilos!

Add in the greatcoat and the pack...and the total equipment carried would probably be pretty impressively heavy.

I knew children were in scouting, music corps, and stuff, but I had no idea any of them served with distinction. Thanks for that very interesting fact.

They might be true about the weight, but I don't care; 17-1800's female soldiers MUST WORK.

ed_montague · Jun 11, 2012

Only a few changes to social mores would be necessary to get women serving in armies openly (perhaps even as an "open secret," i.e. we know you're female but we need the manpower). A sudden catastrophe or prolonged war that screws with the gender ratio may be enough to allow temporary lowering of traditional recruiting standards.

To get all-female regiments, or units with at least a majority of their soldiers possessing a uterus? Hm...

...does this remind anyone of the book Monstrous Regiment?

Napoleon53 · Jun 11, 2012

I think that happened in the American Civil War, where women secretly served but most knew about it anyway and deliberately overlooked it.

ed_montague · Jun 11, 2012

There was that one lady who only revealed her secret after the war had ended and subsequently got in a bit of trouble with the feds for "identity fraud" or something like that. Fortunately, a bunch of pissed-off veterans vouched for her (because, you know, fighting alongside someone in the bloodiest battle's your nation has seen to date forges bonds between people) and the matter was dropped.

Of course, while there are documented accounts of women serving in the American Civil War (1860's and too late for the question posed to us), they were statistical outliers and didn't exactly serve openly. To have openly female line infantry...maybe the Pope has a revelation commanding him to raise his own "monstrous regiment?" I dunno. Only a religious occurrence or bloody disaster could plausibly bring such a change in history.

Ciclavex · Jun 11, 2012

Women line infantry by the eighteenth century would be very difficult; something I think would be much more manageable is female officers. People know about Joan and the other few exceptions, but, I think, the best way to get a solid female presence (though they'd still be a minority) in European officer corps would be to have a massive depopulation of noble men in the younger generation at some point in the 15th-17th centuries (either by some random chance or, much more plausibly, a war of truly epic proportions). That depopulation might lead to the daughters of elder nobility ending up in command of soldiers, and being trained to take up such roles.

It would help if you could have a particularly "masculine", if you know what I mean, queen regnant in a significant European country at the same time, who provides an example for other noblewomen to follow.

Though this would be a temporary situation, it would break that glass ceiling in the noble classes fairly completely, at least in some countries - and, though they'd go back to having primarily male officers later, I don't think they could completely end female participation in military leadership, but I think it's the most plausible way to have female military participation in the 18th century.

brick24alpha · Jun 12, 2012

This may be of interest:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_womensoldiers.html
"Such a woman seldom appears": The Curious Tales of Sergeant Sarah Taylor of the 15th Light Dragoons and Trooper Johanna Stain of the King's German Legion

Contemporary accounts of women serving as soldiers in the British Army.

Bureaucromancer · Jun 12, 2012

Napoleon53 said:
Sexist!

I kid. I see your point, but I think they can carry a musket and a backpack. True, they couldn't be forlorn hopes, grenadiers, or heavy cavalry, but they could be skirmishers, scouts, light infantry, lancers, and dragoons.

The light infantry comment is interesting actually. If you were recruiting women in any numbers it might have a surprising impact on tactics, in that light infantry could suddenly become a much larger percentage of the forces on the field

RGB said:
That said, if you think that the weapons of the time were any lighter than that of the middle ages/renaissance, you'd be in for a surprise.

A musket and bayonet combo is 11-12 pounds (4+ kilos!) which makes it noticeably heavier than any two-handed swords or halberds meant for actual battle. Even a period lance is about 3 kilos!

Add in the greatcoat and the pack...and the total equipment carried would probably be pretty impressively heavy.

There is some validity here, but the fighting load of any of these forces is significantly less than that of any modern infantry soldier. The real (relevant anyway) differences are in the tactics, most especially the importance of any kind of hand to hand combat. Ultimately my guess is that with the tactics of the era women would fit best in dedicated units, and most often not in line infantry regiments, but that plenty of legitimate roles could be found where they would not be at a major tactical disadvantage.

In terms of actually making it happen, I really have no idea. Its probably verging on ASB, and to find a way that it isn't requires a drastically different culture. Officers though might just be conceivable, particularly if you create a broadly similar culture but one in which gender roles have historically been flexible for the nobility (I dont think that would be all that difficult to imagine). Once you have that, combined with things like Joan you're probably half way to officers. Add that to French ideals and Napolean wiping out the Royal Navy putting a major army across the Channel while Wellesley is in Spain (bearing in mind how unready the militia was) and you might just have an almost justifiable TL.