How would you get this map in Europe?

[Glen]

What sequence of events would create borders that looked like this by 2005?

[carlton_bach]

A European superstate creating language-based administrative districts?

Sorry, northing short of a total alteration of European history will produce that.

[chunkeymonkey13q]

The point of Divergence looks much earlier to me. Is that the Holy Roman Empire?

[Nicksplace27]

If the Blue is the Byzantines, then the POD has to be 1095 or somtime around there.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

A European superstate creating language-based administrative districts?

Sorry, northing short of a total alteration of European history will produce that.

Actually, though many of the areas have a large predominant language, that is not entirely true. Look at that gray nation, for example. I bet there's at least three or four languages there.

[Glen]

I'd like a plausible series of events to get these borders...feel free to theorize which nations those would be.

[Soyuz]

The light grey nation is the one that really disturbs me. There is no way so many nationalities can get along... Unless... the Germans don't expand along the Baltic coast, but on the other hand, to the south of it. This happens around 500-1000AD. This causes the Poles to move south and east, mixing all the Western Slavic tribes together into one group... The other ones are much easier to figure out. One of the reason for no smaller nations might be lighter Dark Ages. If there is some exchange of population, then only one major culture could develop per one nationality. There could have been plenty of smaller nation before, but when a larger one of the same nationality emerged, the smaller ones would rather join it, and not a completely different one.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

The light grey nation is the one that really disturbs me. There is no way so many nationalities can get along... Unless... the Germans don't expand along the Baltic coast, but on the other hand, to the south of it. This happens around 500-1000AD. This causes the Poles to move south and east, mixing all the Western Slavic tribes together into one group... The other ones are much easier to figure out. One of the reason for no smaller nations might be lighter Dark Ages. If there is some exchange of population, then only one major culture could develop per one nationality. There could have been plenty of smaller nation before, but when a larger one of the same nationality emerged, the smaller ones would rather join it, and not a completely different one.

I don't know...I wonder if an Uber Hungarian state couldn't have developed further during the middle ages rather than being taken by the Hapsburgs (or whoever). Wallachia and Romania were vassels at one time or another of Hungary, IIRC, so maybe here that gets more formalized. Then either a conquest of Bohemia or some dynastic deal? I could see something like that explaining the gray state's initial formation. Whether such a state would hold into the 21st century...well, who knows?

Here's a map from 1500 where Hungary and Bohemia were in personal union...add in those principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia and we'd actually have pretty much the same borders as that gray nation.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm

I think one big thing to note in this is that there is no Switzerland...I think that definitely implies an earlier POD, though.

[Gladi]

Bright day
Grey state can also come from:
Wenceslaus III Przemyslid decides not to follow his father claim to Poland and and does his best to keep Hungary under control. So he is not assasinated by polish nobles in 1306. Bad: rather late for Byzantium and he really really wanted to keep Poland.

Magyars never came or were not succesfull (thread some pages back) and tus what we are looking at is Great Moravia.


Oh and everybody really dislikes water...

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Gladi

Bright day
Grey state can also come from:
Wenceslaus III Przemyslid decides not to follow his father claim to Poland and and does his best to keep Hungary under control. So he is not assasinated by polish nobles in 1306. Bad: rather late for Byzantium and he really really wanted to keep Poland.

Magyars never came or were not succesfull (thread some pages back) and tus what we are looking at is Great Moravia.

Both interesting possibilities...

[Gladi]

Second bit more.

But there are many other possibilities on how this state could come to be.

[Soyuz]

Originally Posted by Glen Finney

I don't know...I wonder if an Uber Hungarian state couldn't have developed further during the middle ages rather than being taken by the Hapsburgs (or whoever). Wallachia and Romania were vassels at one time or another of Hungary, IIRC, so maybe here that gets more formalized. Then either a conquest of Bohemia or some dynastic deal? I could see something like that explaining the gray state's initial formation. Whether such a state would hold into the 21st century...well, who knows?

Here's a map from 1500 where Hungary and Bohemia were in personal union...add in those principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia and we'd actually have pretty much the same borders as that gray nation.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm

I think one big thing to note in this is that there is no Switzerland...I think that definitely implies an earlier POD, though.

Yes, but it's 2005 and presumably the development of that TL is the same as ours. So a)there is no way a personal union could survive that long and b)as history has shown, only nations of the same ethnic composition can survive very well. That nation has Hungarian, Czecks, Slovakians, Poles, Rumanians maybe even with some Urkanians, Belorussians and Serbs. And they're supposed to live in perfect harmony? Where in our world would you see that?

There are also other alternatives. That the grey area is some sort of small "East Europe Union", or has recently gained those lands in war...

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

Yes, but it's 2005 and presumably the development of that TL is the same as ours. So a)there is no way a personal union could survive that long

Scotland and England started out in a personal union that was then made into a more permanent one; something like that could happen elsewhere.

and b)as history has shown, only nations of the same ethnic composition can survive very well.

I think that is actually an artificial perspective, for a number of reasons. Mostly, however, oftentimes what precisely is ones' 'ethnicity' modifies over time, sometimes more successfully than others. For example, are the Bretons of France 'French'? What about the 'oc' speakers in the South of France? We act as if France is some monolitic ethnic nation, but it is not. What of Spain, with its Gallacians (closer to Portuguese), Basques, and others; are they really all 'Spanish'? Belgium has both Flemish and Walloons, who speak different languages. The Cornish were not English, nor the Welsh, and yet they are all part of 'England' still, and Scotland and that 'England' are still joined in the UK. Switzerland of course is the uber example, having four different languages within its borders, and it has held together quite a while, showing no signs of decay.

There are other nations that have been similarly multiethnic through history (and mostly I only focused on the European nations), though I am certain it would be said that they broke up because of ethnic differences, despite holding together centuries with them.

That nation has Hungarian, Czecks, Slovakians, Poles, Rumanians maybe even with some Urkanians, Belorussians and Serbs. And they're supposed to live in perfect harmony? Where in our world would you see that?

Who said anyone is living in perfect harmony? And also, if this nation formed several centuries ago, would it be true that ALL those groups would still be recognizable within those borders? Maybe, maybe not. I would suggest that any Poles, Ukrainians, and Byelarussians might either have never been there, have assimilated, or moved to where they were a majority over time. Maybe the history of that nation has been a dark one, with purges and pogroms against minorities? I can think of any number of scenarios that explain how it still exists, some dark and some great.

There are also other alternatives. That the grey area is some sort of small "East Europe Union", or has recently gained those lands in war...

True. I would think direct annexation in a recent war unlikely. A Federated State, however, would not be unlikely. Perhaps one that started out somewhat like A-H, but gradually mutated into a looser federated state?

[Soyuz]

Originally Posted by Glen Finney

Scotland and England started out in a personal union that was then made into a more permanent one; something like that could happen elsewhere.

Can be, but at least both of them spoke English...

I think that is actually an artificial perspective, for a number of reasons. Mostly, however, oftentimes what precisely is ones' 'ethnicity' modifies over time, sometimes more successfully than others. For example, are the Bretons of France 'French'? What about the 'oc' speakers in the South of France? We act as if France is some monolitic ethnic nation, but it is not. What of Spain, with its Gallacians (closer to Portuguese), Basques, and others; are they really all 'Spanish'? Belgium has both Flemish and Walloons, who speak different languages. The Cornish were not English, nor the Welsh, and yet they are all part of 'England' still, and Scotland and that 'England' are still joined in the UK. Switzerland of course is the uber example, having four different languages within its borders, and it has held together quite a while, showing no signs of decay.

There are other nations that have been similarly multiethnic through history (and mostly I only focused on the European nations), though I am certain it would be said that they broke up because of ethnic differences, despite holding together centuries with them.

I won't really argue with you here, but at least all of the French came generally from the Franks. And althoug each subculture was different, they were alike compared to any of the neighboring countries. Then in that region there are vast geographical difficulties.

Who said anyone is living in perfect harmony? And also, if this nation formed several centuries ago, would it be true that ALL those groups would still be recognizable within those borders? Maybe, maybe not. I would suggest that any Poles, Ukrainians, and Byelarussians might either have never been there, have assimilated, or moved to where they were a majority over time. Maybe the history of that nation has been a dark one, with purges and pogroms against minorities? I can think of any number of scenarios that explain how it still exists, some dark and some great.

That's why I'm suggesting a pan-western-slavik nation where the migrating Poles assimilate everyone else. Then it can become a Russian-type Federation. Would also explian why Germany has an area of OTL Poland but not Prussia.

True. I would think direct annexation in a recent war unlikely. A Federated State, however, would not be unlikely. Perhaps one that started out somewhat like A-H, but gradually mutated into a looser federated state?

Not after nationalism is introduced!

[Gladi]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

Can be, but at least both of them spoke English...

So keep it great Moravia- voila after standartization of written language during renessaince they are all of the same stock.

Oh, Czech and Slovak has "officialy" split only in early 19th century... and in Silesia too special indermidate dialect was used...

[Soyuz]

Originally Posted by Gladi

So keep it great Moravia- voila after standartization of written language during renessaince they are all of the same stock.

Oh, Czech and Slovak has "officialy" split only in early 19th century... and in Silesia too special indermidate dialect was used...

You're right, but can it survive for a millenia, and where would the invading Hungarians go? And we'll need to merge a bit more than just Czech and Slovak...

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

You're right, but can it survive for a millenia, and where would the invading Hungarians go? And we'll need to merge a bit more than just Czech and Slovak...

The Hungarians can go where they were before, across the Carpathians...

France has survived in some form for quite awhile, as have Denmark and England/

[Gladi]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

You're right, but can it survive for a millenia, and where would the invading Hungarians go? And we'll need to merge a bit more than just Czech and Slovak...

Driven off? (maybe possible, argument in the dead thread)

If the Germany is very german and suppresive of slavic element we could possible mash all-western slavic languages together as they will most probably share single cultural centrum (hm about 18 000 000 people?). Eastern Slavs are tougher nut to crack, Russian education will be around, unless we are looking at some Khanate or other.

Romania, South Slavs, no idea right now. Better the devil you know?

[Wendell]

Thus Lenin never comes to power in Russia, and the Germans win World War I. The lose to Russia in a rematch, however. In the years between wars, Communists take power in Eastern Europe based in Timisoara after Austria collapses. Several other things happen along the way...

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Soyuz

Can be, but at least both of them spoke English...

No, they didn't. That came later.

I won't really argue with you here, but at least all of the French came generally from the Franks.

That's a big 'generally'.

And althoug each subculture was different, they were alike compared to any of the neighboring countries. Then in that region there are vast geographical difficulties.

I think the passage of time has blurred those very real differences that did exist. And it could happen elsewhere given a different history.

That's why I'm suggesting a pan-western-slavik nation where the migrating Poles assimilate everyone else. Then it can become a Russian-type Federation. Would also explian why Germany has an area of OTL Poland but not Prussia.

I guess that's a possibility...please continue to flesh out the idea.

Not after nationalism is introduced!

So maybe it occurs before nationalism is introduced, either by occuring before nationalism showed up OTL, or by having nationalism itself delayed (or maybe it doesn't show up at all ).