On treating an Allied invasion of Japan realistically

1) There's no way Truman would have gone with the invasion if there was any other option. The head of the Department of War estimated that the invasion would cost 1.7 to 4 million American (400,000-800,000 fatalities) and 5-10 million Japanese fatalities. And that was an optimistic guess. So no, in a decision between this and an experimental superweapon, any sane person would go with the superweapon every time. The only option is for the atomic bomb to not be ready in the first place. If I had to give a schenario for this, the first thing off the top of my head is Einstein getting killed by a hit-and-run driver as a kid.

2) It would be even worse than anyone imagined. The Japanese strategy was to bank everything on guessing the probable Allied attack routes, and they did so correctly; the Japanese estimates matched the plans for Operation Downfall pretty much exactly, so the invasion would have run right smack into the teeth of the Japanese war machine. Modern estimates indicate that if we had gone with Downfall, the war would have been extended well into 1947.

3) The socioeconomic consequences would be horrific. The two largest economies in the modern world would have spent years destroying one another. Who knows if the baby boom would even have happened, with all those dead soldiers? It would be put off a couple years, at any rate. And, oh yeah, the plan would have left Japan a "nation without cities", thanks to the the airstrikes which were a part of Downfall.

I completely agree. Here is my thread about it and my thoughts on it:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=207172

and here someone elses thread(inlcuding again my own ideas)

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=240708

It would have been bad, very bad, for both sides.

16 August 1945
Typhoon hits American Naval fleet
Ships of a US Navy fleet are caught in a typhoon off the coast of Japan

http://www.itnsource.com/en/shotlist/BHC_RTV/1945/08/16/BGU409300063/?s=*

this could have made a mess of the American invasion of Japan.


http://www.secondworldwar.org.uk/downfall.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940%E2%80%9349_Pacific_typhoon_seasons#Tropical_Storm_Wanda

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Typhoon Louise"
"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Conquest of Okinawa during the summer of 1945 gave the Americans in the Pacific a large island capable of being used as a launching platform for invasion.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Following the cessation of hostilities with Germany, millions of American soldiers, sailors and airmen were re-deployed to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. The center of this immense military buildup was Okinawa; the primary staging area for the invasion.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Japan had never been successfully invaded in its history. American military planners knew that the invasion of Japan would be difficult if not impossible.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]More than six centuries before, an invasion similar to the planned invasion had been attempted and failed. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In1281 AD two Chinese fleets set sail for Japan. The purpose was to launch an invasion on the Japanese home islands and to conquer Japan in the name of the Great Mongol Emperor, Kublai Khan.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The main armada Sailing from China consisted of 3,500 ships and over 100,000 heavily armed troops. Sailing Korea was a second fleet of 900 ships, containing 42,000 Mongol warriors.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The invasion force sailing from Korea arrived off the western shores of the southernmost Japanese island of Kyushu. The Mongols maneuvered their ships into position and methodically launched their assault on the Japanese coast. In graphic human wave assaults wave after wave of Chinese soldiers swept ashore at Hagata Bay, where they were met on the beaches by thousands of Japanese defenders defending thier homeland and their honor.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Mongol invasion force was a modern army, and its arsenal of weapons far superior to the Japanese. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Mongol soldiers were equipped with poisoned arrows, maces, iron swords, metal javelins and gunpowder. The Japanese were forced to defend themselves with bow and arrows, swords, spears made from bamboo and shields made only of wood. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The battle was fierce and raged on for days, the Japanese warriors pushed the much stronger Mongol invaders off the beaches and back into their ships lying at anchor in the Bay; aided by the fortifications along their beaches of which the Mongols had no advance knowledge; and inspired by the sacred cause of the defense of their homeland.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Mongol fleet then set back out to sea, where it rendezvoused with the main body of its army, which was arriving with the second fleet coming from China. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The combined force of foreign invaders maneuvered off shore in preparation for the main assault on the western shores of Kyushu. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In Japan elaborate Shinto ceremonies were performed at shrines, in the cities, and in the countryside. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese urged on by their Emperor, their warlords, and other officials prayed to their Shinto gods for deliverance from the foreign invaders. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]As Japanese tradition states; 'A million Japanese voices called upward for divine intervention'. From the Gods who protected them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]As if in answer to their prayers, from out of the south a Typhoon arose and headed toward Kyushu. The storm struck the Mongol's invasion fleet wreaking havoc on the ships and on the men onboard. The Mongol fleet was devastated. After the typhoon had passed, over 4,000 invasion craft had been lost and the Mongol casualties exceeded 100,000 men. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]All over Japan religious services and huge celebrations were held. Everywhere tumultuous crowds gathered in thanksgiving to pay homage to the "divine wind" that had saved their homeland from foreign invasion. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Japanese fervently believed that it was this "divine wind" that would forever protect them. And this was still the attitude against which the Americans would face in any upcoming invasion of Japan.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The American invasion scheduled for November 1, 1945 was to be a similar invasion of Kyushu.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Americans would launch their attacks from afloating invasion force of 14 army and marine divisions to be transported by ship to hit the western, eastern and southern shoreline of Kyushu. This shipboard invasion force would consist of 550,000 combat soldiers, tens of thousands of sailors, hundreds of naval aviators all as part of the largest seaborn assault force in history.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The assault fleet would consist of thousands of ships of every shape, size and description, ranging from battleships and 66 aircraft carriers to small amphibious craft sailing from Okinawa, Philippines and the Marianas. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Nearly 4,000 army, navy, and marine aircraft would be routed to Okinawa for direct air support of US landing forces during the invasion.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Japanese knew the Americans were planning to invade their homeland. By July of 1945. Throughout the early summer, the Emperor and his government officials exhorted the military and civilian population to make preparations for the invasion. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Japanese radios throughout the summer announced to the people to [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"...Form a wall of human flesh" and when the invasion began, "...to push the invaders back into the sea, and back onto their ships..." Just as they had pushed back the Monguls.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Japanese people fanatically believed the American invaders would be repelled.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Japanese Culture shared in the mystical faith that their country could never be invaded successfully and that they, again, would be saved by the "divine wind". [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The American invasion never came because the Japanese surrendered.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]By the fall of 1945, approximately 200,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen still remained on Okinawa. As the November invasion date approached the Americans were relieved that the War was over and that they would soon be going home.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Buckner Bay, on the east coast of the island In October, was still crammed full vessels of all kinds which had been gathered for the Invasion of Japan. 150,000 soldiers lived under "Tent Cities." Hundreds of tons of food, equipment and supplies stood stacked in immense piles laying out in the open.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]During the early part of October, to the southwest of Okinawa just northeast of the Marianas, a gigantic typhoon had somehow, out of season, grew to life and began sweeping past Saipan and into the Philippine Sea. As the storm grew violent, it raced northward kicked up waves 60 feet high. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Navy Meteorologists expected it to pass between Formosa and Okinawa, and to disappear into the East China Sea. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]On the evening of October 8th, the storm changed direction and abruptly veered to the east. When it did so, there was insufficient warning to allow the ships in the harbor to get under way in order to escape the typhoon. By late morning on the 9th, rain was coming down in floods and torrents and the seas were rising visibility zero. Winds 80 miles per hour began blowing from the east and northeast, caused small crafts in Buckner Bay to drag anchor. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]By early afternoon, the wind had risen to over 100 miles per hour, the rain coming in horizontally and the larger vessels began dragging anchor under the pounding of 50 foot seas. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Buckner Bay became a scene of devastation. Ships dragging their anchors collided with one another; hundreds of vessels were blown ashore. Vessels in groups of two's and three's were washed ashore into masses of wreckage that began to accumulate on the beaches. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Numerous ships were abandoned; their crews precariously transferred between ships. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]By mid-afternoon, the typhoon reached its peak with winds coming directly out of the north and the northeast, blowing up to 150 miles per hour. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ships initially grounded by the storm were now blown off the reefs and back across the bay to the south shore, dragging their anchors the entire way. More collisions occurred between wind-blown ships and shattered hulks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Gigantic waves swamped small vessels and engulfed larger ones. Liberty ships lost their propellers, while men in transports, destroyers and Victory ships were swept off the decks by 60 foot waves that reached the tops of the masts of their vessels. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]On shore, the typhoon was devastating the island. Twenty hours of torrential rain washed out roads and ruined the island's stores of rations and supplies. Aircraft was picked up and catapulted off the airfields; huge Quonset huts were sailing into the air, metal hangars were ripped to shreds and the "Tent Cities", housing 150,000 troops on the island, ceased to exist. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Almost the entire food supply on the island was devastated. Americans took refuge in the recently held Japanese caves, trenches and ditches in order to survive. Tents, boards and sections of galvanized iron were hurled through the air at over 100 mph. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The storm raged over the island for hours, and then slowly headed out to sea; then it doubled back, and two days later howled in from the ocean to hit the island again. On the following day, when the typhoon had finally past, dazed men crawled out of holes and caves to count the losses. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Countless aircraft had been destroyed, all power was gone, communications and supplies were nonexistent. General Joseph Stillwell, the 10th Army Commander, asked for immediate plans to evacuate all hospital cases from the island. The harbor facilities were useless. B-29's were requisitioned to rush in tons of rations and supplies from the Marianas. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]After the typhoon roared out into the Sea of Japan and started to die bodies began to wash ashore. The toll on ships was staggering. Almost 270 ships were sunk, grounded or damaged beyond repair. Fifty-Three ships in too bad a state to be restored to duty were decommissioned, stripped and abandoned. Out of 90 ships which needed major repairs, the Navy declared only 10 were worthy of complete salvage, and so the remaining 80 were scrapped. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Hundreds of Americans were killed, injured and missing, ships were sunk and the island of Okinawa was in havoc. According to Samuel Eliot Morrison, the famous Naval historian, "Typhoon Louise" was the most furious and lethal storm ever encountered by the United States Navy in its entire history. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the aftermath of this storm, with the war now history, few people concerned themselves with the obsolete invasion plans for Japan. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]However, had there been no bomb dropped or had it been simply delayed for only a matter of months, history might well have repeated itself. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]An American invasion fleet of thousands of ships, planes and landing craft, and a half million men might well have been in that exact place at that exact time, poised to strike Japan, when this typhoon enveloped Okinawa and its surrounding seas. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Is the typhoon story is true then we could be looking at a communist Japan today Or worse a continued shinto Japan who believe that they really are protected by the gods

smjb said:

If I had to give a schenario for this, the first thing off the top of my head is Einstein getting killed by a hit-and-run driver as a kid.

Click to expand...

Why Einstein? Better if it were Sziland or Fermi.

BELFAST said:

16 August 1945
Typhoon hits American Naval fleet
Ships of a US Navy fleet are caught in a typhoon off the coast of Japan

Click to expand...

Regarding the typhoon. . . weather events are subject to the butterfly effect like anything else. So if history has changed, the weather would change also. Depending on the POD the TL is using, sufficient butterflies might accumulate in time to prevent the typhoon from happening at all.

smjb said:

1) There's no way Truman would have gone with the invasion if there was any other option. The head of the Department of War estimated that the invasion would cost 1.7 to 4 million American (400,000-800,000 fatalities) and 5-10 million Japanese fatalities. And that was an optimistic guess. So no, in a decision between this and an experimental superweapon, any sane person would go with the superweapon every time. The only option is for the atomic bomb to not be ready in the first place. If I had to give a schenario for this, the first thing off the top of my head is Einstein getting killed by a hit-and-run driver as a kid.

Click to expand...

The decision to drop the bombs before Operation August Storm could be launched also suggests that there wasn't much exploration of options between "use the superweapon" and "invasion". Being a sane person, I would of course had waited for the operation actually agreed on at Yalta, and which would seal the enemy's only (perceived) chance at peace.

If I had to give a scenario for this, I would let Roosevelt live a bit longer.

There is one school of thought which suggests neither an invasion nor the nuclear bombs were necessary. It was entirely the soviet invasion which finally pushed the Japanese to recognising the writing on the wall. From this it follows that bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were more about giving America a strong starting position in the post-war world and scaring the Soviets than beating Japan.

I wouldn't quite 100% agree there but it certanly was a large part of it.

The problem with Downfall is fourfold:

1) It is realistically only possible with a POD that delays the start of the Manhattan Project by a few months to a point where the Bomb won't be ready until 1946. As if the Bomb is there, nukes + Soviets = Japanese surrender on the Missouri. That POD has no direct impact on the fighting to 1945 in Europe or Asia, however, and it is the simplest one to lead to it.

2) The Soviet Union's war in Asia, which is right as WWII is starting the slide into Cold War. I could actually see the Soviets using Lend-Lease to pull off a variant of an invasion of Hokkaido and relishing being the ones joyriding against a paucity of resistance for a change, but we'd be having a Japan as divided as Germany and Korea, major butterflies for the Cold War.

3) From an AH perspective, Downfall tilts the US history and mythology of WWII away from Europe altogether to the Pacific theater. Downfall would be one of the most gruesome and bloody events in US history, bypassing the US Civil War Battle of Antietam arguably (which would be rather horrible), and in the process you're not going to see a USA with a view of war akin to the one of OTL. The people that die in Downfall will be quite a lot (and I arguably won't exist, nor will my dad. My Aunt would, however, as would my mom).

4) The fighting would include a Germany-style mixture of untrained levies being ripped to pieces by artillery, armor, and air power and brutal, fanatical resistance in urban warfare. Think Manila times twenty. General Starvation and General Logistics are going to be more lethal even than the sheer weight of US and Soviet firepower.

It is worth noting that, as OTL developed, Nimitz was preparing to withdraw his public endorsement of Olympic (soon renamed Majestic) (the invasion of Kyushu, slated for Nov. 1945) just as the Japanese surrender was announced. The evidence of the Japanese buildup on Kyushu was simply too daunting for him, and all the efforts of MacArthur's HQ to pooh-pooh it were no longer flying. Had Japan not surrendered, the stage was set for a gigantic interservice showdown over what to do about the invasion plans.

It's harder to predict how that would have unfolded. The only thing that seems obvious to me is that Majestic would have been, at the very least, radically reworked. Truman would have been reluctant to simply overrule the objections of the Navy, especially if they were violent. Truman, after all, was not FDR, and this was a far more momentous decision than giving MacArthur his head in the Phillippines-versus-Formosa dispute. Perhaps the tactical use of nuclear weapons would have been sufficient, if enough could be built in time (I tend to doubt it). In a TL without nukes, however, it becomes harder to finesse the problem. It's hard geography you're up against: The U.S. was reluctant to mount an invasion without the backing of land-based airpower, and the the only place reachable by land-based air power was southern Kyushu. And that's where the Japanese committed the bulk of their resources by the summer of 1945. The Japanese could read a map as well as the Americans could.

The one interesting possibility, however, is that Japan really was betting most of its chips on smashing an Allied invasion of southern Kyushu. The bulk of their forces, including their planes, were committed there. And there was no easy way of moving them again, given the lack of fuel, and the destruction of most of the inter-island shipping by the U.S.. I do wonder whether the compromise wouldn't have been to strike a very different target - like say Shikoku - even if that meant a lack of land-based air power.

The real likelihood, however, is that without a surrender, the U.S. finds itself forced to starve and bomb the Japanese out, given the unlikelihood that the Army/Navy fight over invasion plans could be resolved - and that the USAAF would not be all that unhappy with backing the Navy blockade/bomb solution. The result would be a divided Japan, with Hokkaido under Soviet control, and the rest suffering millions of dead, and even more destruction.

Danth said:

Is the typhoon story is true then we could be looking at a communist Japan today Or worse a continued shinto Japan who believe that they really are protected by the gods

Click to expand...

Having a typhoon hit the invasion force moored off Okinawa would only encourage the Japanese.

Did the Soviets really have enough manpower, ships and supplies to actually invade and occupy Japan? If so when would they invade, granting the bombs didn't work as a surrender and the Japanese had continued "fighting"?

Hokkaido should have been the US's main target as well, for a few reasons:

1. It was the least populated and had the fewest troops garrisoned there. The US navy could have sealed it off from Honshu to prevent reinforcements from getting there from Honshu.

2. As mentioned, it was strategically located because it was the closest of the Home Islands to the Soviet Union. An invasion and occupation by American forces negates Russian forces from any military action in Japan proper.

3. The shock of a foreign army invading, capturing and occupying one of the Home Islands would have been as great, if not greater, than the atomic bombs or the August Storm invasion.

Granted, most of the forces would have to come from the Aleutians/ Alaska, or possibly even Hawaii, rather than those that were already accumulated in the Philippines and Okinawa .

But the problem is the timing of the invasion. It would have to have taken place about the same time the the bombs were dropped in OTL (August 6th and 8th) instead of November as the Kyushu assault was originally planned for. Waiting until November leaves Hokkaido wide open for the Russians, and they could very well have been fighting on Honshu by the time any US forces finally landed.

Japan was never really going to continue resistance after the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria. This is for 2 reasons:

1. The Soviet invasion cut Japan off from even a trickel of raw materials, making long term resistance against an American or Soviet invasion impossible.

2. Because resistance would have been impossible the Japanese leadership, terrified of the idea that they would be defenseless against Soviet invasion, would have surrendered.

The Soviet entrance into the war was just as shocking and demoralizing as the atom bombs were.

I don't see the Soviet Union trying to assault Hokkaido before spring, 1946. They simply did not have sealift in place in the Pacific in August, 1945 to say nothing of the fact that they had no significant experience in amphibious operations of that size or of that distance from base to objective. It was more important for them to take Manchuria (and Korea) first - forces were not available to do both at the same time in spite of reinforcements from the west. By the time you get in to autumn, the weather in that part of the world between Vladivostok & Hokkaido gets very bad - not a good time to try amphibious operations.

The Soviets cancelled the non-aggression pact well in advance of the declaration of war in August, per the provisions of that treaty. Per the "3 month" agreement they should have attacked Japan 2-3 weeks before they did and I think they held off the attack as long as they could - they knew before August, 1945 the Kwantung army was a hollow shell. Had the US not dropped the bomb in early August, the Soviets would have found excuses to delay the attack even longer - as long as they were in to Manchuria when the Japanese surrendered they would get what they wanted, and the more the US was bled before the war ended so much the better - also the Lend-Lease (now used for reconstruction) would keep coming....

Long before Manchuria fell the Japanese industry was starved for raw materials. If all of the raw materials in Manchuria had been crated and sitting on the docks there were, in 1945, no ships to transport it to Japan, and no oil to fuel those ships had they existed (and no oil to run the factories either). Between the submarine campaign, the retaking of islands that controlled shipping routes to Japan, and the aerial mining campaign Japan was as functionally isolated from imports as if it were on the moon. The USSR occupying Manchuria changed this not one iota.

IMHO had the Russians not declared war in August, 1945, the Japanese would have surrendered on the same schedule give or take a few days.

One must and should realize the key role the USSR played in defeating Nazi Germany. As far as the war against Japan, it was essentially zero and amounted to stealing from someone who had been knocked out by someone else.

On balance I really tend to think that it just wouldn't have happened. A surrender through bombing and blockade was from everything I've seen more or less inevitable before the bombs dropped, and between the timeline involved in a Soviet invasion and the delays likely to hit an American operation I have a hard time imagining Japan holding out long enough to be invaded, or divided.

smjb said:

2) It would be even worse than anyone imagined. The Japanese strategy was to bank everything on guessing the probable Allied attack routes, and they did so correctly; the Japanese estimates matched the plans for Operation Downfall pretty much exactly, so the invasion would have run right smack into the teeth of the Japanese war machine. Modern estimates indicate that if we had gone with Downfall, the war would have been extended well into 1947.

Click to expand...

I read once where Japanese spies reportedly stole planes for the German ME282 fighter and improved on those plans, and had their own force of jet fighters where US ships would have never even gotten anywheres near the Japanese coast. I think this would have extended the war into maybe 1950 when the US could finally get its own jet fighters.

The Emperor

The key to all this is the role of the Emperor. The Japanese were willing to fight for the continued existence of the Emperor and that included any sense of putting him on trial as a war criminal. To many Japansee, Hirohito was a God and you don't put God on trial.

The Japanese knew (and history told them) that the Russians would destroy the established elite - they had brutally executed the tsar and there seemed little doubt that IF the Red Army got to Tokyo, Hirohito would likely be executed and that was totally anathema to the Japanese.

Initially, the Japanese also thought the Americans wanted to do away with the Emperor by putting him on trial as a war criminal. It was only when Washington conceded that the Emperor's person and position would remain, albeit much curtailed, that the moderates in Tokyo realised that they could surrender.

In essence, those who served the Emperor could be judged for their actions or could commit seppuku - the Emperor was above such concerns. The Russians would either execute the Emperor or sweep the Monarchy away. The Americans would keep the Emperor, alive and unjudged, but would judge his servants.

In the end, that was the key that opened the door to the option of surrender. The Japanese would have to endure the loss of Empire and the loss of face but the Emperor would survive.

Soviet invasion of Japan is a realistic as UK invading France after we won 'The Battle of Britain'. Militarily Russia was exhausted, then to divert the bulk of their forces from Europe, build an amphibious assault fleet, with no real industerial base to do so, and invade Japan before the Yanks??? Don't think so.
No Atomic weapons for the USA and that typhoon hits the invasion fleet? A blow like that could bring down the government. The losses would take 2-3 years to replace so earliest for a second attempt possibly as late as mid '47. Isolate Japan maybe but this would not force them into surrendering. It as someone already said would encourage them to resist. However look then to western europe, there would be very little to stop the Soviets driving on to the atlantic coast.
The butterflies from this are numerous.
The Nukes did the trick.

IIRC there was still an extremist faction of the military that wanted to fight on, witness their attempts to storm the Imperial Palace to seize the recording the Emperor made announcing the surrender and to force him to change his mind. Now thankfully they weren't able to find it, and there was a second copy off-site, but what happens if they destroy the recordings and take the Emperor into 'protective custody' for his own and the nations safety?

Simon said:

IIRC there was still an extremist faction of the military that wanted to fight on, witness their attempts to storm the Imperial Palace to seize the recording the Emperor made announcing the surrender and to force him to change his mind. Now thankfully they weren't able to find it, and there was a second copy off-site, but what happens if they destroy the recordings and take the Emperor into 'protective custody' for his own and the nations safety?

Click to expand...

Remember what Halsey said after Pearl Harbour?