British Hawaii

rowmaster

Question: What if the British Occupation of Hawaii in 1843 by the Royal Navy had been Recognized by the British Goverment? That is Hawaii either becomes a British Colony or Protectorate? How would this effect American Expansion into the Pacific? Would Hawaiians risist British Occupation? Also what would happen durring and after WWII? (This is my first Thread on the site so if thats a problem asking in the Pre-1900 board a Applogize)

Thoughts?
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Welcome to the board.

AFAIK weren't the Hawaiian nobles rather friendly with the British. Since Britian would most likely let them keep their titles I'd think that they wouldn't be likely to resist.

The American population of the islands (traders and such) might be a problem though. They might try to engineer an incident of some kind to try to get the US to intervene in the islands but this early enough that such is probably less likely...in the 1840's I don't think that the Pacific Coast is accessible enough for the government in Washington to consider prosecuting a war over what, to them, are a handful of savage islands.
 

G.Bone

Also that Hawaii was sort of out of the way of British "concerns". The nearest power that could (and in fact do, depending on where you're looking from) rule with sufficient and lasting power was the US.
 

Nicole

G.Bone said:
Also that Hawaii was sort of out of the way of British "concerns". The nearest power that could (and in fact do, depending on where you're looking from) rule with sufficient and lasting power was the US.
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Britain had many pacific islands OTL, however, and could take Hawaii.
 

G.Bone

True, but Hawaii is in the middle of the Pacific and the closest British colony was...I think...Fiji or the Pitcarn Islands. Kind of out of the way for a British Colony to be located some miles and days away...
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Yeah and at this point the British haven't really pacified their part of the East Indies yet- the nearest British base of any strength is Singapore since AFAIK they haven't got any footholds in China in the 1840's.

However, this is no real hindrance. If the US accepts British occupation of Hawaii the Brits won't realy have any threats to worry about- they'll just send out a Resident to advise the Hawaiian monarch and let the place pretty much run itself. You'll see British merchants and planters there but not so much of a military presence.

Later on it might well be administered from Vancouver.
 

rowmaster

The lack of a nearby bases though would be more of a reason for the British to take Hawaii, Pearl Harbor allows their navy to control the Central Pacific
 

G.Bone

True, but the issue will be with the Americans, who are quite large in the population at that time, and have sort of intregated themselves into the royalty. Anglican faith simply cannot move in where Protestants are.
 

Nicole

G.Bone said:
True, but the issue will be with the Americans, who are quite large in the population at that time, and have sort of intregated themselves into the royalty. Anglican faith simply cannot move in where Protestants are.
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Aren't the Anglicans Protestant?
 

G.Bone

I meant the New England type Protestant. They were the ones that imposed the sort of New England style clothing :rolleyes: in the tropics. Although everyone was "civilized", they pretty much became the "novuelle riche" of Hawaii, and gave Western diseases to the Hawaiians.
 

Nicole

G.Bone said:
I meant the New England type Protestant. They were the ones that imposed the sort of New England style clothing :rolleyes: in the tropics. Although everyone was "civilized", they pretty much became the "novuelle riche" of Hawaii, and gave Western diseases to the Hawaiians.
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Ah yes, the New England Protestants, the days when the Puritans were still somewhat around...

Hm, well, that would be something of a problem, but I don't think the US would get involved over that... The USA seemed rather reluctant to annex Hawai'i OTL, look how long it let the Republic sit, only taking it once the Spanish-American War broke out and bases were needed.
 

Viriato

G.Bone said:
True, but Hawaii is in the middle of the Pacific and the closest British colony was...I think...Fiji or the Pitcarn Islands. Kind of out of the way for a British Colony to be located some miles and days away...
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Remoteness never stopped the British from taking over an area, just look at the Falklands. Plus Hawaii would be a good coaling station between Australia and British North America.
 

G.Bone

Ah but that was the genius of the Missionaries

First they sort of get power through marryin'

Then they sort of become merchants, loose religion

Then they sort of use their "economic influence" to get troops

And then Hawaii is a state/Republic...


-On a side note, Cleveland was actually moving to let the Kingdom be a Kingdom (for the second time in a row) but was superseeded because of economic concerns and the metioned S/A war.

Basically Hawaii was screwed over because the US had the region to provide their troops, got there first, and essentially had no land to provide for an economic basis to counter the US's offer of aid/etc.

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Remoteness yes, but dude, the closest that Hawaii is to someplace is CA. Coming from Vancover would be stupid and additonal miles.
 

Wendell

Flocculencio said:
Yeah and at this point the British haven't really pacified their part of the East Indies yet- the nearest British base of any strength is Singapore since AFAIK they haven't got any footholds in China in the 1840's.

However, this is no real hindrance. If the US accepts British occupation of Hawaii the Brits won't realy have any threats to worry about- they'll just send out a Resident to advise the Hawaiian monarch and let the place pretty much run itself. You'll see British merchants and planters there but not so much of a military presence.

Later on it might well be administered from Vancouver.
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Think Canada would later annex it? I think it would be interesting if Britain got Hawai'i, and the U.S. got Fiji.
 

Nicole

Wendell said:
Think Canada would later annex it? I think it would be interesting if Britain got Hawai'i, and the U.S. got Fiji.
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The US would likely also have all of Samoa in such a scenario.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Wendell said:
Think Canada would later annex it? I think it would be interesting if Britain got Hawai'i, and the U.S. got Fiji.
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Not so much annex it but become the major port for Hawaii towards the end of the 19th C since it's the nearest British city of any size.

I'm thinking cargoes of pineapple etc being sent from Hawaii to Vancouver and being freighted by rail to the atlantic seaboard and thence by sea to Britain. Seems to be the most direct cargo route.

But the point about posession of Hawaii allowing Britain to dominate the Central Pacific makes sense.

G.Bone's points about the Puritans in Hawaii are true but I dobut that America would be willing to go to war with Britain at this juncture over the Central Pacific- this is before the gold rush in California so it's not like Washington has THAT much interest in the Pacific yet.

An interesting thought- might this mean that it's Britain and not the US which opens Japan to the world?
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
A few points:

1. There were no Puritans in Hawaii. There were Calvinist missionaries.
2. Not all of the Monarchs of Hawaii were Calvinist Protestant. King Kalakaua was a member of the Anglican Church. He became a member because of its use of ritual and its ties to Britain.
3. In the 1840s Pearl Harbor was nothing to speak of. It wasn't until the early 1910s that both it and Honolulu Harbor were dredged to permit ships to enter.
4. There were close connections between the Kamehameha Dynasty, the House of Kalakaua and British Royalty. Prince Albert, the only son of Kamehameha IV, was the godson of Queen Victoria.
5. The 1840s are early enough that US involvement could be marginalized.
6. The British could cede Pearl Harbor to the US as part of the lend lease act.
 
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