Retrospective US Presidential Election: 1872

[Justin Green]

I'm solidly against prohibition, on the other hand alcoholism was so rampant it truly was a cancer on society at the time. I read somewhere that Americans in the 1800s were consuming as much whiskey then as we do now with 5 times as many people. Pretty ridiculous.

[Justin Green]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

I'll reserve my vote for a few days in. I don't want to throw it away on a candidate that lost quickly.

I respect that.

[Japhy]

The Next Election will certainly be close, Tilden is the New Departure incarnate, he's an Ex-Barnburner. With either he or Hayes winning enough votes we don't see an abandonment of Civil Rights by the Federal Government in the face of Redeemer Opposition. 1880 should be a good Garfield Win because his VP is also great, and neither the Ohioan or the New Yorker are Pro-Redemption, Anti-Freedmen like Scott was. After that, I think Ben Butler will be the harbinger of the Populistic Third Parties, though Ben Harrison is a good Pro-Civil Rights candidate so I hope he does better then Garfield. 1884 might just wind up being a Populist Win.

[Justin Green]

Originally Posted by Japhy

The Next Election will certainly be close, Tilden is the New Departure incarnate, he's an Ex-Barnburner. With either he or Hayes winning enough votes we don't see an abandonment of Civil Rights by the Federal Government in the face of Redeemer Opposition. 1880 should be a good Garfield Win because his VP is also great, and neither the Ohioan or the New Yorker are Pro-Redemption, Anti-Freedmen like Scott was. After that, I think Ben Butler will be the harbinger of the Populistic Third Parties, though Ben Harrison is a good Pro-Civil Rights candidate so I hope he does better then Garfield. 1884 might just wind up being a Populist Win.

Care to say anything about the Greenback party platform or its canidates?

[RogueBeaver]

Four More Years.

[Komodo20]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Care to say anything about the Greenback party platform or its canidates?

I would also be interested in hearing this.

My main concern about the Greenbacks is that I still have not been able to make any sort of decision concerning the gold standard vs. silver standard vs. fiat currency issue (also I really like most of the Republican candidates). Would moving to a fiat currency in the Gilded Age cripple the US Economy, or just cause a little bump, or even benefit it? I don't really get economics all that much.

[Turquoise Blue]

Originally Posted by RogueBeaver

Four More Years.

This is the same as Ike, isn't it? Famous military leader runs a decade after the war, gets elected. But Seymour and Greeley are hardly Stevenson...

[Justin Green]

We ended up abandoning the gold standard anyway.

[Justin Green]

Originally Posted by Turquoise Blue

This is the same as Ike, isn't it? Famous military leader runs a decade after the war, gets elected. But Seymour and Greeley are hardly Stevenson...

Ike was a better President than Grant though. At least in many peoples minds.

[Japhy]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Care to say anything about the Greenback party platform or its canidates?

The Greenbacks (And the Populists) had a terrible economic policy, and racially despised the Chinese (And to an extent European Immigrants too) but were interested in the South in building a Post-Redeemer Bi-Racial Society, though many of its Southern members eventually became (Or revealed themselves to be) White Supremacists.

Overall the party is a mixed bag on the Race issue, but thats better then the Southern Bourbon Democrats, or the Post-Compromise Republicans who couldn't even pass the 1890 Lodge Act.

As for the Candidates, Cooper is a bit of a Joke, though better then redeemers, Weaver from the small bits I've read about him in regards to Civil Rights had an above average record, Ben Butler is fantastic in the face of the issue, Bryan is a chameleon who's views on race depend on what will get him further, and Tom Watson in 1904 is already becoming highly unpleasant in regards to Race.

That said, inflating the currency as much as they wanted so that farmers could pay their debt destroys US Industry, tariffs or no tariffs.

[Stolengood]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Ike was a better President than Grant though. At least in many peoples minds.

But only in their minds, though...

[Japhy]

Originally Posted by Komodo20

I would also be interested in hearing this.

My main concern about the Greenbacks is that I still have not been able to make any sort of decision concerning the gold standard vs. silver standard vs. fiat currency issue (also I really like most of the Republican candidates). Would moving to a fiat currency in the Gilded Age cripple the US Economy, or just cause a little bump, or even benefit it? I don't really get economics all that much.

Consider in the analysis that US Industry was only able to grow as much as it did because the US Government gave preferential treatment to railways, and that tariffs kept out cheap European Imports, and that shortages in Gold caused massive damage to Industry in the 1890's. The Greenback/Anti-Monopoly/Populist economic system is a cocktail of destruction for Industry in a desperate hope to empower a Rural-centered America that was rapidly fading away.

[Justin Green]

Originally Posted by Japhy

Consider in the analysis that US Industry was only able to grow as much as it did because the US Government gave preferential treatment to railways, and that tariffs kept out cheap European Imports, and that shortages in Gold caused massive damage to Industry in the 1890's. The Greenback/Anti-Monopoly/Populist economic system is a cocktail of destruction for Industry in a desperate hope to empower a Rural-centered America that was rapidly fading away.

Japhy the people your supporting opened fire on striking workers, how do you whitewash that?

[Justin Green]

Since when were monopolies a good thing? I mean I can understand the case behind electric monopolies (no reason to have 5 different companies all needing to lay seperate power lines) and similar cases. But your coming off in support of robber barons.

[Rooster Cogburn]

I like Rockefeller Just putting that out there.....

[Justin Green]

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

I like Rockefeller Just putting that out there.....

You like a civil war draft dodger? Let me guess, you also voted twice for George W. Bush.

[Japhy]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Since when were monopolies a good thing? I mean I can understand the case behind electric monopolies (no reason to have 5 different companies all needing to lay seperate power lines) and similar cases. But your coming off in support of robber barons.

When did I say that Monopolies were a good thing? My problem with the Anti-Monopoly/Greenback/Populist Party economic goals are that they only benifit farmers, causing massive inflation to the currency (Inflating it 16x its previous value was the minimum they sought) is nothing good at all. I don't like Robber Barons at all and I never said anything about that, but the ideology of Free Silver (Which for various reasons was pushing much more then the 16:1 ratio in fact if not in rhetoric) is one that destroys American Industry, that is factories and the lives of the workers earning shitty wages in them, and America's ability to stand on its own two feet in regards to Europes power.

The Various parties that we can simply refer to as "Populist" didn't care about that though, their offers to urban workers were always hollow and often opposed by rural leaders in their own parties, and the reason that made sense to them was because they were an Anti-Urban party. Just as farmers in other countries turned to radical/reactionary politics in the face of Urbanization and Industrialization American farmers other rural voters turned to Populism, as a rejection of that triumphant and necessary change.

Just because I prefer Republicans and Democrats to Populists in the issue of Coinage does not mean I support sending Federal Troops to break up strikes and the reaction to Homestead.

[Japhy]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

Japhy the people your supporting opened fire on striking workers, how do you whitewash that?

I'm not trying to whitewash anything. The Populist plan sucked, and so for that matter did Grover Cleveland but that was neither here nor there for the point of discussing my view on the Populist parties and their stances.

All I was saying was that in regards to Black rights they were commendable, towards other minorities no, and that their economic policy threatened hyperinflation for the sake of farmers paying off their debts. I'm not calling for President Nelson Miles or Nelson Aldrich.

[Japhy]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

You like a civil war draft dodger? Let me guess, you also voted twice for George W. Bush.

Thats a bit of an overreaction, and this is coming from me.

Thousands of Americans rich and poor dodged the draft during the war, including many great men, you're also smearing Theodore Roosevelt Sr, and Chester Arthur with that sort of line and if its about not volunteering to fight, well FDR didn't serve in any Trenches did he? (His opposite number the Assistant Secretary of War did go and fight).

[Justin Green]

I don't like the idea of paying your way out of a draft. Not sending rich people to the trenches is why so many wars are fought.