WWIII 1946 Weapons Development

[Hipsterredneck556]

I don't really see the allied arsenal differing too much from that of WWII. New infantry weapons (I.E. the M14 or the FAL) cannot be concieved, developed, and mass produced within a year. As awsome as the .280 British is, the UK is not going to be able to suddenly crank out semi-auto weapons chambered in it. I could see the British converting Lee Enfields in .280, but I seriously doubt that they would be able to work all the kinks out of the EM2 in such a short timespan.

[Hipsterredneck556]

Originally Posted by NickBana

I see that the Allies will started to develop small arms with intermediate cartridge. So, M-14 will butterflied away I think... FN-FAL maybe uses a smaller cartridges...

The Soviet will field SKS first(assuming the field test for AK-47 was still running)... Then slowly move towards AK-47 (AKM because the production was more efficient)...

EDIT: Subscribed.

The US is not going to adopt an intermediate cartridge. We were the single biggest obstacle to the adoption of the .280 as a NATO standard round. Unless there is a immense shift in thinking by the US military, any american rifle will be in .30-06.

[Sior]

Originally Posted by Hipsterredneck556

I don't really see the allied arsenal differing too much from that of WWII. New infantry weapons (I.E. the M14 or the FAL) cannot be concieved, developed, and mass produced within a year. As awsome as the .280 British is, the UK is not going to be able to suddenly crank out semi-auto weapons chambered in it. I could see the British converting Lee Enfields in .280, but I seriously doubt that they would be able to work all the kinks out of the EM2 in such a short timespan.

What about the Charlton?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_Automatic_Rifle

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Sior

What about the Charlton?

Too heavy as a rifle at 7,3kg, and in 46 there should be plenty of BRENs around, so not needed as a LMG either.

[Sigma7]

Saive could very well skip developing the FN-49 from his SAFN platform and go straight to the FAL. He'd need someone to build it for him though, and someone who could mass produce it at that for it to be of any consequence.

He'd have a couple of good options for cartridges in the Mauser Kurz and .280 British so he's got that going for him.

Western Europe's manufacturing base being the mess it was by the end of World War 2 would probably necessitate it being manufactured in the U.S. (optimally) or Canada (which could pump out a decent, if not acceptable, number of weapons) from their undamaged factories far from the front and out of reach of Soviet air power.

Of course, the U.S. and Canada would be pumping out the ammo for these guns as well and an interesting butterfly off that wartime condition could be the U.S. military (or arms manufacturers) experimenting with an intermediate .308, butterflying away the .308 Winchester for something like a 7.62x40mm Wilson Tactical. Possibly.

An M14 style rifle firing something akin to the 7.62x40 WT might come out of that, but that's as big an 'If' as I can think of in the history of small arms.

A .308 intermediate cartridge could satisfy enough of the War Department to get them to adopt a service rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge at that point in time (that and GIs and Marines seeing the AKM in action first hand) but the Department of Army Ordinance is a perfect study in "Nobody could blow this call. I can't believe they blew this call."* so...


*See: Sharps Model 1859 Rifle, Spencer Rifle, M1885 Remington-Lee rifle, Lewis Gun, M1 Carbine, M14 design and implementation, M16 family of weapons...

[NickBana]

Besides, if they stick with full powered battle rifle, there were the risk they lost the land war against the Soviet... The GI will be pinned down by the immense firepower of the AKM whilst they could only fire accurate single shot or fire automatic and risk wasting your bullet even more because your rifle transformed into anti aircraft gun...

[NickBana]

Originally Posted by Hipsterredneck556

The US is not going to adopt an intermediate cartridge. We were the single biggest obstacle to the adoption of the .280 as a NATO standard round. Unless there is a immense shift in thinking by the US military, any american rifle will be in .30-06.

I know, thats why Hairog seems irritated by the debate about it in his timeline(sorry, mate)...

Look, the Allies had seen first hand the effectiveness of the first assault rifle fielded(StG 44), how if the Reds develop the similar weapon? they must develop it, if not they will risk lagging behind or suffer disadvantages(and heavy casualties) when encountering the Soviet. Mr. K's weapon must be already be in final stages of test before the attack...

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by Sigma7

Saive could very well skip developing the FN-49 from his SAFN platform and go straight to the FAL. He'd need someone to build it for him though, and someone who could mass produce it at that for it to be of any consequence.

He'd have a couple of good options for cartridges in the Mauser Kurz and .280 British so he's got that going for him.

Western Europe's manufacturing base being the mess it was by the end of World War 2 would probably necessitate it being manufactured in the U.S. (optimally) or Canada (which could pump out a decent, if not acceptable, number of weapons) from their undamaged factories far from the front and out of reach of Soviet air power.

Of course, the U.S. and Canada would be pumping out the ammo for these guns as well and an interesting butterfly off that wartime condition could be the U.S. military (or arms manufacturers) experimenting with an intermediate .308, butterflying away the .308 Winchester for something like a 7.62x40mm Wilson Tactical. Possibly.

An M14 style rifle firing something akin to the 7.62x40 WT might come out of that, but that's as big an 'If' as I can think of in the history of small arms.

A .308 intermediate cartridge could satisfy enough of the War Department to get them to adopt a service rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge at that point in time (that and GIs and Marines seeing the AKM in action first hand) but the Department of Army Ordinance is a perfect study in "Nobody could blow this call. I can't believe they blew this call."* so...


*See: Sharps Model 1859 Rifle, Spencer Rifle, M1885 Remington-Lee rifle, Lewis Gun, M1 Carbine, M14 design and implementation, M16 family of weapons...

Considering that the US stupidly refused the 7x43mm in OTL, I doubt something like the 7.62x40mm with 20% less power will be acceptable to them.

[NickBana]

Yeah, because they don't see it coming...

[Hipsterredneck556]

The 7.62x40 is a really weird "intermediate intermediate" round. It is a 7.62mm bullet in a shortened 5.56x45 case. A round like that isn't going to happen in 1946. The .280 might but the US will be sticking with .30-06. A M14 type rifle in .270 or .243 is a wonderful thought however. Hell, loading the .30-06 with a lighter bullet (115-100 grains) would have some interesting terminal performance while possessing less recoil than the M2 ball.

[red1]

For American tanks, you could use the T30 heavy tank. It had 155 mm gun.

If possible, I would have the Americans commit massive funding to develop Von Braun's V2A9 Rocket for use against Russia. BTW, when will the Americans finally be able to restart A bomb production?

[NickBana]

Most of their development team was either dead, dying or incapacitated...

Had to restart... But not from square one...

[Claymore]

Originally Posted by NickBana

If the American wanted to improve the M26 Pershing Tank it would be good. The main problem I see in Pershing Tank was the engine...

Originally Posted by red1

For American tanks, you could use the T30 heavy tank. It had 155 mm gun.

Actually some work has already been done on this front (a M26 Pershing replacement) by Hairog and Mad Missouri. Basic design of the T50 sees a modified Centurion hull with Cadillac engine mounting the prototype M47 90mm turret. Discussion between posts 1200 and 1499, or there abouts! As a modeller of AH AFVs, I got interested and kit-bashed the beastie below:

[NickBana]

Oh God, how I totally forgot about that?

[tallthinkev]

Could there be any devolopments of the A39 Tortoise or T28 (the U.S. one) super tanks/ heavy assault gun? Maybe putting the guns on a better platform?

[wietze]

Originally Posted by Hipsterredneck556

The 7.62x40 is a really weird "intermediate intermediate" round. It is a 7.62mm bullet in a shortened 5.56x45 case. A round like that isn't going to happen in 1946. The .280 might but the US will be sticking with .30-06. A M14 type rifle in .270 or .243 is a wonderful thought however. Hell, loading the .30-06 with a lighter bullet (115-100 grains) would have some interesting terminal performance while possessing less recoil than the M2 ball.

Best intermediate would be the 6.5mm swedish mauser anyway, preferably somewhat modernised (somewhat shorter case, modern powders are more powerful, so less room needed)

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by wietze

Best intermediate would be the 6.5mm swedish mauser anyway, preferably somewhat modernised (somewhat shorter case, modern powders are more powerful, so less room needed)

Still a wee bit too powerful for controllable automatic fire, the .280 really is just about perfect...(or 6.5 Grendel if you want a slightly lighter & faster bullet with the same energy, but that one obviously doesn't exist in '46 while the development on the .280 started in '45)

[RangerElite]

Originally Posted by Xavier

Still a wee bit too powerful for controllable automatic fire, the .280 really is just about perfect...(or 6.5 Grendel if you want a slightly lighter & faster bullet with the same energy, but that one obviously doesn't exist in '46 while the development on the .280 started in '45)

Read post#1655 in the World War III in May 1946 story forum. It is a weapons development story dealing with this very issue. While nothing is set in stone, there seems to be a preference...and please, gentlemen, this is JUST a story, so let's remember to have some fun. Btw, welcome back, Claymore. I can not get enough of that beautiful Centurion/M-47 hybrid M-50 Patton model. It looks outstanding.

[Sigma7]

Originally Posted by Hipsterredneck556

The 7.62x40 is a really weird "intermediate intermediate" round. It is a 7.62mm bullet in a shortened 5.56x45 case. A round like that isn't going to happen in 1946. The .280 might but the US will be sticking with .30-06. A M14 type rifle in .270 or .243 is a wonderful thought however. Hell, loading the .30-06 with a lighter bullet (115-100 grains) would have some interesting terminal performance while possessing less recoil than the M2 ball.

Well, that's the thing, they wouldn't have the 5.56x45 NATO parent case in TTL, so they'd have to use something that IS around.

I was thinking more along the lines of a .308 Winchester of a different sort; rather than making a larger cartridge based off the .300 Savage, how about shortening the .300 Savage (by 7.5mm) and sticking a 125 or 130 grain .308 bullet in it?

[NickBana]

What? How?