Commerce Raider designs from a 1920 German point of view?

[Shadow Master]

I just want to discuss Commerce Raider designs and philosphy, NOT weather cr warfare was doomed or even possible. So...

Give me some CR crusier designs for a German tl idea. Keep the tonnage to 10,000 and guns to 6". I'll post my design tomorrow. Have fun.

[BlondieBC]

A lot will depend on how you have WW1 ending. Who won? What year? Any overseas German bases?

But from your information, I would go with what would really be a long-range destroyer.

6 X 15cm guns.
4 torpedo tubes in case we have to fight big ships, and can't get away.
30-35 knot speed
10,000 nm range
2 Seaplanes.

After these are met, I would try to get as cheap as possible, because Germany will need a lot of them, and they will die often.

[Shadow Master]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

A lot will depend on how you have WW1 ending. Who won? What year? Any overseas German bases?

But from your information, I would go with what would really be a long-range destroyer.

6 X 15cm guns.
4 torpedo tubes in case we have to fight big ships, and can't get away.
30-35 knot speed
10,000 nm range
2 Seaplanes.

After these are met, I would try to get as cheap as possible, because Germany will need a lot of them, and they will die often.

Cool, I like the specs. To help visualize better, can I get a total tonnage, main armament layout? IE, 2 triple or 3 twin, and how many for/aft?

I agree with needing many, and a high attrition rate.

***Edit***
I have the POD taking place right after WWI ends as historically. Basically, the seeds for the "Revenge War" take root...

[Matt Wiser]

Look at the raider Wolf: a converted freighter. Make a successor ship about 7,000 GRT or so, coal-fired engines as she'll be living off of her captures, six 150-mm guns (5.9"), maybe several 88-mm (several German cruisers did carry 88s in those days to arm captured freighters as auxiliary raiders), a couple hundred mines to lay in places like off the Cape of Good Hope, Australia, the Florida Straits, etc., and a couple of seaplanes (Wolf had a seaplane and used it most effectively to scout for prey) Speed would be about 12-16 knots or so, as most potential victims are about the same speed or slower. All she is is another converted freighter, and her mission is to capture or sink other merchants, so keep that in mind. Only fight a British Armed Merchant Cruiser (or worse, a British, American, or Japanese cruiser) if you're cornered and combat is unavoidable.

[DD951]

Originally Posted by Shadow Master

Cool, I like the specs. To help visualize better, can I get a total tonnage, main armament layout? IE, 2 triple or 3 twin, and how many for/aft?

I agree with needing many, and a high attrition rate.

From a gunnery perspective, 3 twin mounts would be better, and for an arrangement, with a raider, it might be better to have 1 forward /2 aft like OTL WW2 German CLs & Japanese DDs, & the post-war US Forrest Sherman - class DD, since a raider is probably going to have to run from most warships, & having more firepower aft would be useful in that scenario

[Shadow Master]

AH!

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Look at the raider Wolf: a converted freighter. Make a successor ship about 7,000 GRT or so, coal-fired engines as she'll be living off of her captures, six 150-mm guns (5.9"), maybe several 88-mm (several German cruisers did carry 88s in those days to arm captured freighters as auxiliary raiders), a couple hundred mines to lay in places like off the Cape of Good Hope, Australia, the Florida Straits, etc., and a couple of seaplanes (Wolf had a seaplane and used it most effectively to scout for prey) Speed would be about 12-16 knots or so, as most potential victims are about the same speed or slower. All she is is another converted freighter, and her mission is to capture or sink other merchants, so keep that in mind. Only fight a British Armed Merchant Cruiser (or worse, a British, American, or Japanese cruiser) if you're cornered and combat is unavoidable.

Good points there about the "Q" ships. I have a potential TL outline in the works, and it includes some german merchant marine build-up as one of the differences from OTL. Every reason to have some of these be disguised merchant raiders as well. Good ideas.

Originally Posted by DD951

From a gunnery perspective, 3 twin mounts would be better, and for an arrangement, with a raider, it might be better to have 1 forward /2 aft like OTL WW2 German CLs & Japanese DDs, & the post-war US Forrest Sherman - class DD, since a raider is probably going to have to run from most warships, & having more firepower aft would be useful in that scenario

My own thinking went along the lines of three turrets, one fore and two aft for that very reason. I also am thinking that the one forward would allow for a higher freeboard/better seakeeping in higher seas, so as to be both faster overall, and faster in bad weather.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Shadow Master

Cool, I like the specs. To help visualize better, can I get a total tonnage, main armament layout? IE, 2 triple or 3 twin, and how many for/aft?

I agree with needing many, and a high attrition rate.

***Edit***
I have the POD taking place right after WWI ends as historically. Basically, the seeds for the "Revenge War" take root...

You have to springsharp your ship, but something like the USA Porter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_class_destroyer

It will have to be bigger to handle the extra fuel, extra guns to arm captured ships, and extra sailors, so probably 3000 tons plus. Go with Triple twin turrets and whatever is your standard German AAA. I would also think about armoring against 15cm fire, since repairs are so hard, but only if I can keep speed at 35+ knots. Basic concept is to be able to outrun cruisers, and outgun destroyers (but only if we can't avoid), and capture merchants.

You will build the hull for range and speed, and fit the turrets however. Probably 2 forward, superimposed, 1 aft. Or 1 Forward, 1 Port, 1 Starboard.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Look at the raider Wolf: a converted freighter. Make a successor ship about 7,000 GRT or so, coal-fired engines as she'll be living off of her captures, six 150-mm guns (5.9"), maybe several 88-mm (several German cruisers did carry 88s in those days to arm captured freighters as auxiliary raiders), a couple hundred mines to lay in places like off the Cape of Good Hope, Australia, the Florida Straits, etc., and a couple of seaplanes (Wolf had a seaplane and used it most effectively to scout for prey) Speed would be about 12-16 knots or so, as most potential victims are about the same speed or slower. All she is is another converted freighter, and her mission is to capture or sink other merchants, so keep that in mind. Only fight a British Armed Merchant Cruiser (or worse, a British, American, or Japanese cruiser) if you're cornered and combat is unavoidable.

The Wolf is what I am mostly basing my ship on, but increasing the speed. I am assuming given time to design the ship from the keel up, you can get a Wolf like ship with much higher speed and a little armor. And the mine laying is also very useful for a raider. A few mines here or there can consume a lot of mine clearing resources and get a few major kills.

Also remember if the Germans are doing a major merchant raider strategy, they should have plans to convert Merchant ships to AMC and stockpiles of materials. A little work with the German shipyards can make the conversion easier if the original design has a conversion in mind.

You can also look at my TL for how I think a merchant war could be fought.

[Matt Wiser]

Having a mix of warships purpose-designed as commerce raiders and the disguised merchant raider is a plus: though keep in mind that many of the Allied cruisers will be able to outgun a German light cruiser-and they'll likely have reinforcement nearby. The two most successful warship raiders were Emden in the IO and Karlsruhle in the Atlantic. The former was caught by the original HMAS Sydney and shot to pieces in the Cocos Islands, while the latter was blown apart by a still-unexplained explosion that sent her down along with 263 of her men.

[Matt Wiser]

Keep in mind that any ship sent out as a raider has to be able to blend in. Having a cruiser-type hull built for speed, along with the usual accroutments a freighter has, is certainly going to raise eyebrows once she's spotted. Best to blend in and be a wolf among the sheep.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Keep in mind that any ship sent out as a raider has to be able to blend in. Having a cruiser-type hull built for speed, along with the usual accroutments a freighter has, is certainly going to raise eyebrows once she's spotted. Best to blend in and be a wolf among the sheep.

All designs come from a naval philosophy, and mine is based on my TL, where there are some unusual events. MittelAfrika includes Togo to SWA, Congo, German East Afrika, so I am already in the commerce lanes. I intend to operate the ships with U-boats for raiding, but I also want them to be able to fight with the larger surface ships I station in Africa. And, I will also convert freighters to AMC in a major war. And, I will have major airbases in Africa.

So these ships are to breakout into the Indian Ocean and harass shipping from Indonesia to Aden. Or they are to breakout to the mid North Atlantic. Or they might be a part of a major surface task force. So I build a cheap compromise ship that will be staffed with Africans, and will be viewed as disposable. They are really long range, GrossTorpedoBoot, designed to force the UK to spend huge resources in securing its sea lanes during the peace time.

That is why I asked about how WW1 ended. The Peace deal makes a lot of difference. For example, if Germany keeps just German East Africa, IMO, the ship designs change a lot.

[StevoJH]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Keep in mind that any ship sent out as a raider has to be able to blend in. Having a cruiser-type hull built for speed, along with the usual accroutments a freighter has, is certainly going to raise eyebrows once she's spotted. Best to blend in and be a wolf among the sheep.

Depends on what speed its designed to operate at I suppose.

Make a speed of around 20 knots or so and it would be faster then most frieghters of the time, but wouldn't need a fine warship hull.

[Matt Wiser]

Atlantis, Kormoran, and Pinguin of WW II fame had max speeds about 15-16 knots, though they could do 18 in a pinch. But their greatest asset was the ability to blend in. Atlantis passed the battleship HMS Nelson in SoLant in 1941 at a range of 8,000 yards and was ignored. Another raider (Thor) fooled a British AMC long enough to lure her into gun range-and shot her to pieces (this was the sinking of HMS Voltaire). And of course, the biggest one was Kormoran's playing of a Dutch freighter long enough to get HMAS Sydney within rifle range (1500 yards) before declaring herself and opening fire on 19 Nov 41. Both combatants were sunk, but only 315 of Kormoran's crew survived the encounter to become POWs in Australia. There were no Australian survivors. Either your disguises are effective, or if they fail, fight it out. And having a hull that looks like a cruiser's but is a freighter on top, and any warship skipper's going to be suspicious. Let alone a merchantman's. They'll think that any ship with that kind of hull is automatically a raider in disguise and raise the alarm.

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Look at the raider Wolf: a converted freighter. Make a successor ship about 7,000 GRT or so, coal-fired engines as she'll be living off of her captures, six 150-mm guns (5.9"), maybe several 88-mm (several German cruisers did carry 88s in those days to arm captured freighters as auxiliary raiders), a couple hundred mines to lay in places like off the Cape of Good Hope, Australia, the Florida Straits, etc., and a couple of seaplanes (Wolf had a seaplane and used it most effectively to scout for prey) Speed would be about 12-16 knots or so, as most potential victims are about the same speed or slower. All she is is another converted freighter, and her mission is to capture or sink other merchants, so keep that in mind. Only fight a British Armed Merchant Cruiser (or worse, a British, American, or Japanese cruiser) if you're cornered and combat is unavoidable.

While AMC is better idea than warship raider, I'd argue that coal-fired raider is very limited due to coal taking too much of cargo space and coal fired engines being maintenance intensive. Even in 1920 the diesels would be the way to go.

Most importantly, like Blondie BC says, there should be an effort to prepare for cruiser warfare. Germany could have inserted, say, fifty AMC's, into oceans of the world during first year of the war without this being a very big drain on German resources. Some could well have been equipped with special equipment other than just seaplanes. Torpedo boats come to my mind as in OTL.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari.../ls/ships.html

These small attack crafts could have been used for coastal mining of distant shores, inserting raiding parties to critical installations etc.

In general, Kriegsmarine suffered from delusions of Admiral Dönitz and his merry gang of U-boats. Instead of being developed as a balanced coastal defence / commerce raiding force which would have been more useful for German war effort the German naval effort was almost totally focused upon U-boat campaign. This is even more puzzling as historically U-boats failed in the First World War, after all.

[kato]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

But from your information, I would go with what would really be a long-range destroyer.

With those specs that's not a destroyer (even in purpose), that's a quite classical light cruiser in line with the Washington treaty as was built by most navies at the time.

If you want light that also operates from the colonies mass-build something along the lines of the slightly later French Bougainville avisos. Perhaps twice the size (i.e. 4000 tons) to expand endurance at sea, also expanding range to up to say 15,000 miles at 10 knots, top speed around 17-18 knots, with a few single six-inch guns in place of the Bougainville's 138mm guns.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Either your disguises are effective, or if they fail, fight it out. And having a hull that looks like a cruiser's but is a freighter on top, and any warship skipper's going to be suspicious. Let alone a merchantman's. They'll think that any ship with that kind of hull is automatically a raider in disguise and raise the alarm.

It is not an either/or situation. I gave a design for a light cruiser that can operate from fortified ports in Africa, and directly challenge the British Navy. Even without colonies, these type of ships would have been useful to the Nazi's. If the Nazi had 10 of these types of ships around the world when the war started, and 10 in reserve in Germany, they could have caused huge initial interruption to the UK trade. Now with 6-12 months, the RN probably has hunted down the original 10 ships. After the fall of France, they could have been station out of France, forcing the UK to use a lot of assets dealing with them. They would compliment naval aviation, U-boats, E-boats, minefields, and larger surface fleets. They are designed to be cheap enough to be willing to lose them.

If one wants an AMC, not a CL, the specs do change to what you are suggesting. No two ships look a like. I want the RN to literally need to stop every ship it sees to search. This in and of itself is a huge gain in slowing trade. I will just make German ship yards build ships that look similar to common designs and are easy to arm. They should also be easy to modify to look like multiple classes. Today a standard USA freighter, tomorrow a Argentina refrigeration ship. Now for the new target specs.

Tons: 3K-10K. It is nice for space for extra fuel, marines and the like.

Speed : more than 10.

Guns: 2-6 15cm guns, but some may have only 10.5 cm guns. I like torpedo tubes also.

Seaplanes 1-2 if possible.

Range: As much as possible.

With a wise construction plan, many of these ships are not custom ships, but merely freighters that are quickly converted. For example, as Hitler looks for Poland in 1939, the Navy begins to trickle out 2-4 AMC per week to distant ports. The guns are either in the cargo hold and can be quickly installed OR they are hidden. By the time the war starts, there are 20-40 ships that immediately start raiding. If the war does not start, they simply completed the cover merchant mission and return home. For example, deliver the banana to the USA, and in the hold will be 3000 tons of fruit, not the 5000 tons that could be carried if their was no ammo or disassembled planes.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by kato

With those specs that's not a destroyer (even in purpose), that's a quite classical light cruiser in line with the Washington treaty as was built by most navies at the time.

If you want light that also operates from the colonies mass-build something along the lines of the slightly later French Bougainville avisos. Perhaps twice the size (i.e. 4000 tons) to expand endurance at sea, also expanding range to up to say 15,000 miles at 10 knots, top speed around 17-18 knots, with a few single six-inch guns in place of the Bougainville's 138mm guns.

Without armor, which is also an option I am considering, I think a destroyer is a better classification, but I do see people saying it is a CL. The main reason I am considering a larger design is I have a major shipyard in Africa, and I will crew with Africans, so they cost is likely to be 10-25% of the cost of European built ship.

I am also no so comfortable with a 10-18 knot speed. This will mean once spotted, the UK always gets a kill. A higher 35 knot speed means the ship can make a speed run for a friendly port. I am not against AMC, but once building a warship, I can't see building one with top speed under 30 knots if the weight is under 8,000 tons.

[corditeman]

Successful merchant raiders were converted merchant ships with around four single guns behind gun-shields, carrying an active seaplane and a spare, generally one or two torpedo tubes below the water-line and an outfit of mines. They acted as raiders and as supplementary fuel+torpedo+food supply ships to U-boats in distant waters.

In 'Operation Wassernixe' in my 'HMS Heligoland' main TL, I had a force of merchant raiders (Handel-Stor-Kreutzer) and U-boats attack US naval bases to try to draw a reluctant Japan into a shooting war. The HSK and U-boats deployed teams of frogmen with Drager rebreathing sets, mining charges and human torpedoes, to attack ships berthed and at anchor. Against an enemy not alerted to the risks, the results would be lethal. Read it and enjoy.

Fascinated by your discussion and merely wanted to add my two-penn'orth. Please continue!

[Shadow Master]

My own design:

The ships would be close to 10,000 tons and armed with 3x3 6" turrets, in the 1 fore, 2 stern configuration, with as high a speed and as great a range as I could manage. I would have them unarmoured, to achieve the greatest speed & range at the expense of survivability.

Of course, that is what they look (and are reported to be) like. The reality is something else.

Publicly, the ships would seem to be just a rather specilized CL, designed to be able to run away from a persueing enemy, while still bringing to bear as much of the main battery as a conventional ship on a direct interception course.

I have three features that I would like to toss out to the forum community that would play heavily into the TL if they seem doable.

1) Smoke generators. Big, powerful smoke generators that can creat an impenaterable barrier to spotting in all but the worst wind conditions.

2) Special tordedoes. Nothing further on this one yet.

3) The possibility of a 'hydrogen hang-glider' type of towed drigiable for FC and over-the-horizon prey spotting.

I also have some evil additional 'tricks' up Germanys sleeve.

[deamy]

IMHO, there are really only three options:

1. A warship that can fight enemy cruisers. Should be between a Deutchland and a Scharnhorst. A remake of the Derfflingers would work too. At the time the French have nothing that can fight it, and the British only have 3 battle cruisers.

2. A long range submarine. Somewhat untested in 1920, but well on the way. Proved to be very successful.

3. A Merchant, standard design. 20 kph speed, very long range. A few Turn-of-the-century 6'' guns, a couple of torpedoes, anti-aircraft guns and a float plane hidden in boxes on the deck, 100 mines, small arms and a pair machine guns for the crew. Flags from all plausible nations, paint and spare parts.

The auxiliary cruisers of both WWI and WWII were much cheaper and more successful than the true warships when it came to raiding.

Either you go for something that can fight enemy warships, or you go for something cheap. You get a hundred of these for the same price as a battle cruiser.

There's absolutely no point in building a purpose built raider with only 6x6'' guns as it can't even fight with a light cruiser. Too expensive for no utility. A merchant cruiser like the above could do anything that it could do, but for a fraction of the prize.

If you want some more fighting power, go for something that can actually fight the 50 or so cruisers out there, like a Deutchland.