WI Sweden Invaded as Part of Operation Weserübung?

Binky the Clown

While Germany invaded Denmark and Norway, the Wehrmacht left Sweden alone. Hitler's main excuse for invading Denmark and Norway was that the allies were going to invade them first. The British had even made plans to seize the Iron ore fields of Northern Sweden if the allies were to invade Norway. What if Hitler and his staff heard of these plans and decided to invade Sweden as part of Operation Weserübung, just to ensure that Sweden's Iron Ore was in Axis hands? Would such an invasion succeed and at what cost?
Will Sweden be like Denmark in that its civilian government will continue to function (albeit under German protection), or will a Quisling government be set up? If Sweden is a de facto protectorate like Denmark, will they join the Anti-Comintern pact? What will be the fate of Sweden's Jews?

(Sorry if this post is question-heavy, I'm kinda' new here :eek:)
 

ivanotter

Welcome onboard!

I don't think germay would invade Sweden. Just like Switzerland, being neutral, was off-limits for the Allieds.

Switzerland produced a lot of the German AA guns and their factories wer not bombed at all. If Germany had invaded Switzerland, it would have ben a war zone and legitimate targets.

The same with Swden. The iron ore was, after all, in Sweden, but the railway link was in Norway.

The actual mining, I think, was to be left alone by the British.

Germany needed some clearing house as well. Sweden was sufficiently fascist to be of use.

Ivan
 

Simreeve

ivanotter said:
Welcome onboard!

I don't think germay would invade Sweden. Just like Switzerland, being neutral, was off-limits for the Allieds.
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Norway and Denmark were both neutral before this operation too. So were the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg, initially. That status in itself didn't keep the Germans from invading any of them, did it, so why should it automatically protect Sweden?
 

zoomar

Why invade Sweden when you don't have to?

By invading and occupying Denmark and Norway, and with Finland already in the Axis orbit, Germany essentially neutralized Sweden as a potential threat or base for Allied influence without having to incur the costs of military occupation or the difficulty of dealing with home grown fascists like Quisling. Since the Swedish government was willing to accomodate Germany's desire for resources and logistic support to Finland, the Nazis received almost all of the benefits of occupation without any of the hassles.
 

sharlin

Banned
Going off the premise of this WI and the Germans invade Sweden I think the Swedes would have been able to slow the Germans and last longer than Norway did as there was much more of a military in Sweden and they had things like a navy that mattered as well as effective coastal defences.

But..they still would have lost. But the drain on german manpower for other operations would have been expensive. The Swede's whilst friendly to the Germans were far less trusting and had their forts manned at near full levels as soon as the war began as well as rushing to complete major works at the huge and quite amazing Boden fortress complex.

In WW2 the Swedish navy actually gathered to fight the Germans in what was an invasion scare when some major German surface ships (1 PB, 1 CA and 1 CL and DDs) if memory serves were spotted sailing towards Swedish territorial waters.

The Swedes still lacked a decent tank and their airforce was tiny but perhaps they could have caused the germans far more causalties. It would be a victory, but a bloody one.
 

ivanotter

because by keeping Sweden neutral, the iron ore was (reasonable) protected.

Denamar and Norway had strategic assets (coast line, etc etc), but no value to offer in tems of factories, etc to be protected

There was no need to invade sweden.

Ivan
 

Rubicon

Banned
ivanotter said:
Welcome onboard!


Germany needed some clearing house as well. Sweden was sufficiently fascist to be of use.
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Wait what?

Sweden was a staunchly social democratic country. The Swedish equivalent of a Nazi party got about 0,1% of the votes. Calling Sweden a fascist country is about as accurate as calling Great Britain one, in fact it is actually more accurate to call Great Britain a fascist country then Sweden, with their colonial possessions and lack of democratic institutions there.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

If hitler invades sweden then he cant invade france at the sqme time. Which means the the allies may hold narvik espeecially if the get swedish help. That gives a line of comunication for the west to ship supplies to sweden.

Besides, the swedish iron will be cut off completely until and unless the germans take the mines intact.

Stupid gamble, for tiny pay off. Hitler wasnt THAT stupid.

Edit. Otl, hitler didnt need the swedish ore after hed taken the french mines. Here, that may not happen, and wont happen soon, and so hell have NO iron ore coming in......
 

ivanotter

I was born in Denmark (many moons ago).

Sweden was surely as much a democracy as any of the other Nordic countries, yes.

HOWEVER, they did bend over backwards in making sure Hitler was happy with them.

""wiki:
Sweden remained officially neutral during World War I and World War II, although its neutrality during World War II has been disputed.[53][54] Sweden was under German influence for much of the war, as ties to the rest of the world were cut off through blockades.[53] The Swedish government felt that it was in no position to openly contest Germany,[55] and therefore made some concessions.[56] Sweden also supplied steel and machined parts to Germany throughout the war. However, Sweden supported Norwegian resistance, and in 1943 helped rescue Danish Jews from deportation to concentration camps.

1943: everybofy could see the wars was lost.

Denmark for that matter: Active promotion of Freikorps Danemark, an SS regiment fighting in Russia.
Police active in tracking down Danish Communists until 1943, when the Danish police got interned


"""During the German invasion of the Soviet Union, Sweden allowed the Wehrmacht to use Swedish railways to transport (June–July 1941) the 163rd Infantry Division along with howitzers, tanks and anti-aircraft weapons and associated ammunition, from Norway to Finland. German soldiers traveling on leave between Norway and Germany were allowed passage through Sweden — the so-called permittenttrafik. Iron ore was sold to Germany throughout the war.

HOWEVER: In good Nordic tradition as well:
""And for the Allies, Sweden shared military intelligence and helped to train soldiers made up of refugees from Denmark and Norway, to be used in the liberation of their home countries.[4][page needed] It also allowed the Allies to use Swedish airbases between 1944 and 1945.
Sweden also became a refuge for anti-fascist and Jewish refugees from all over the region. In 1943, following an order to deport all of Denmark's Jewish population to concentration camps, nearly all of Denmark's 8,000 Jews were brought to safety in Sweden. Sweden also became a refuge for Norwegian Jews.

So, Sweden was a good little ally for Germany. No need to rock the boat there. And the Swedish factories were not bombing targets

Ivan
 

Lord High Executioner

ivanotter said:
HOWEVER, they did bend over backwards in making sure Hitler was happy with them.
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Apart from the small matter of geography Zoomar mentioned, considering
with how much provocation Germany invaded Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands and Norway - would you go out of your way to provoke
the Germans while things were going their way?

Rubicon said:
So you are backtracking on your rather gargantuan claim that Sweden was fascist?
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I think going from calling Swedish fascist to calling it a good little ally isn't
exactly a backtracking...
 

zoomar

ivanotter said:
So, Sweden was a good little ally for Germany. No need to rock the boat there. And the Swedish factories were not bombing targets

Ivan
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I fail to see how the information you quote makes Sweden a "good little ally" of Nazi Germany. Sweden was a small power essentially surrounded by Axis controlled territory. It was not Belgium or Holland that could count on the assistance of nearby major powers (France and Britain) if attacked - not that this did them any good, of course.

Countries need foreign trade and if the only country around you that you can effectively trade with happens to be Germany, you trade with Germany. Sweden would have nothing to gain by resisting German "requests" to transport troops and equipmant through its territory to assist Finland and fight the Soviets. As even you noted Sweden did what it could to protect Jews and assist he allied cause in a way that did not invite a German assault.

You are correct that Swedish neutrality in effect favored Germany, but that does not make them a German ally.
 

zoomar

Rubicon said:
Being a fascist country and being Germany's ally are two quite distinct different things that aren't really related.
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True. But in the case of Sweden they are both inaccuirate. As you note, Sweden was not remotely fascist, nor was it a German ally. It was a social democracy put in an awkward position by events. It chose the only realistic option - which was to not anger the nasty big dog in its neighborhood. Some may consider this cowardice. I don't. The prime reason the Swedish government existed was to protect the life and freedoms of the Swedish people. Playing nice with the Nazis was the only way they could do that, which probably saved thousands of Swedish lives - as well as the lives of anyone who had fled German-controlled territory to escape concentration camps.
 

ivanotter

OK, calling Sweden fascist was a bit too strong. Apologies for that.

It is, however, amazing to see that the only country of the 3 Nordic countries resisting Germany in any serious way was Norway.

Sweden did as Germany told them to do until 1943's when everybody could see the war was lost.

Denmark did the same.

Now, it is not thereby saying the entire population was behind these decisions.

To the Danish government, it was a matter of trying to make the best out of it. I do believe that the Danish government was trying to be patriotic as they saw it, saving Denmark from becoming another Poland (or Norway).

HOWEVER: Soviet was not prepared to accept that Denmark in 1945 was liberated country. They claimed it was conquered country exactly because of the cooperation with Germany.

Also, that little island in the Baltic Bornholm, Danish territory, was occupied by the Soviet forces. They only left in 1946

Of course it was difficult. Devil's alternative, isn't it?

The thing that is still smarting is that the Danish police allowed itself to be used in the hunt for communists. But in all its illogical ways, the Nordic countries were together saving the Jews. Nearly all 8,000 Danish Jews got rescued. Nobody wanted to not help in that.

My mom told me a story, heard from a German soldier:" When we shoot in the steets of Poland, everybody disappears. If we shoot in the streets of Denmark, the street is immediately swamped with people wanting to see what's going on".

Ivan
 

Armored Diplomacy

Sweden could put up a good fight, but it would fall in the end. However, the Germans struggled as it was to invade Norway without control of the seas, so they would need to thin out their Norway forces and rely heavily on air power. If the Germans had decided to invade Sweden early on, they would be smart to have sent additional forces to take Norway, because they had no control of the seas, and the British quickly recovered from the surprise, so they weren't going to pull anything like that again. Perhaps, though, they could have pulled another surprise and used Luftwaffe transports to airdrop in troops and heavy equipment into Norway.

But I've heard that a German invasion might have had the effect of stopping the iron ore shipments completely, because if Sweden was under German occupation, the Allies now had justification to bomb Swedish iron ore mines.
 
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Lord High Executioner

Rubicon said:
Being a fascist country and being Germany's ally are two quite distinct different things that aren't really related.
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Yes, and backtracking (as used here) implies withdrawing a claim either
completely or to replace it with a "lesser" one.
I'm just not sure if "a good little ally to Nazi Germany" is actually a lesser
accusation than fascist.

Peter Parker said:
But I've heard that a German invasion might have had the effect of stopping the iron ore shipments completely, because if Sweden was under German occupation, the Allies now had justification to bomb Swedish iron ore mines.
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Not to mention encouraging the locals to do things to the railroads.
Stereotypically, the people up north (and especially the miners) tend
to be a bit to the left...

By the way, my history is rusty on the subject:
In which way did the Norway oppose Germany before the invasion?
 

stodge

Swedish Neutrality

It's a question we've discussed here before. Of course, the Finns became Germany's allies once it seemed likely some measure of revenge for the Winter War was on the table.

In effect, Sweden was surrounded by Axis occupied or Axis-friendly elements.

Perhaps a different question is to ask why Sweden didn't join the allies in the spring of 1945 and invade Norway (which the Norwegians wanted). Although the German occupation force in Norway was numerically strong, only the Mountain Divisions facing the Russians in the far north were still first-line troops.

It's possible the bulk of non-SS German forces would have surrendered quickly had the Swedes attacked.
 

ivanotter

I think the Nordic countries had stopped waging war on each other long before.

Sweden invading Norway? I think that is a non-swimmer

Ivan
 
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