Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs killed in 1997-Christopher "The Notorious BIG" Wallace lives.

[Glass Onion]

Yes, this is a question about rap music. Not exactly a popular subject here. But please indulge me for the moment. My question is basically in the title of the thread. What if the fates of Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs, and Christopher "The Notorious BIG" Wallace were switched? What if Combs had been the one murdered in 1997 and Wallace had been the one mourning his death instead of the other way around? And to avoid further problems, presume that no further drive by shooting occurs where Wallace is concerned. The man had a serious weight problem, so that may cause some health concerns further down the line, but for the moment, presume he lives at least long enough to see New Years Day 2000. With Combs dead, what happens to Bad Boy Records? How does Wallace respond to Combs' death? How is Combs remembered here? How does the continued presence of Wallace affect the music industry? Does he release another album after "Life After Death"? Or does the murder of Combs guide him towards retirement? What impact does the absence of "Puff Daddy" have on American culture generally? And conversely, what impact does Wallace's presence have?

Again I realize that this is a horribly unpopular topic here. And I know there are probably some issues with plausibility regarding Combs being targeted instead of Wallace.

[AtriumCarceris]

Originally Posted by Glass Onion

Yes, this is a question about rap music. Not exactly a popular subject here. But please indulge me for the moment. My question is basically in the title of the thread. What if the fates of Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs, and Christopher "The Notorious BIG" Wallace were switched? What if Combs had been the one murdered in 1997 and Wallace had been the one mourning his death instead of the other way around? And to avoid further problems, presume that no further drive by shooting occurs where Wallace is concerned. The man had a serious weight problem, so that may cause some health concerns further down the line, but for the moment, presume he lives at least long enough to see New Years Day 2000. With Combs dead, what happens to Bad Boy Records? How does Wallace respond to Combs' death? How is Combs remembered here? How does the continued presence of Wallace affect the music industry? Does he release another album after "Life After Death"? Or does the murder of Combs guide him towards retirement? What impact does the absence of "Puff Daddy" have on American culture generally? And conversely, what impact does Wallace's presence have?

Again I realize that this is a horribly unpopular topic here. And I know there are probably some issues with plausibility regarding Combs being targeted instead of Wallace.

I'm glad somebody is interested in things like this. I for example really want to try doing a Tupac-lives Timeline but figured nobody would care.


Bad Boy Records, I have no idea. What normally happens when the owner of a company dies?

It's a fairly big loss though, the company, his future clothing line, and he helped put a lot of people on the map with his record label. He's done a lot. Off the top of my head we might not have a popular Ciroc Vodka.

Certainly Wallace releases more albums. But we have a bigger problem here. The death of Wallace after Tupac pretty much completely ended the East coast-West Coast rivalry. If Wallace lives, and Combs dies, it might go on for longer. Whereas the death of Tupac and then Biggie was seen as sort of an equal ending, the end of Bad Boy but continued presence of Death Row might start more fires. Of course, it might just end anyway but I wouldn't think so.

Wallace's continued existence beyond more rap albums probably isn't anything special. Unlike Combs, he didn't do anything outside of rap. But then again you never know, sometimes people get discovered and brought up by other rappers, it's impossible to tell who we might have "missed" with Wallace's death.

[Glass Onion]

Originally Posted by AtriumCarceris

I'm glad somebody is interested in things like this. I for example really want to try doing a Tupac-lives Timeline but figured nobody would care.

It's easy enough to imagine him not being shot in Vegas, but that's another topic for another time. I myself have been inclined to speculate over what the impact of a different 1994 shooting would be. IE, either Shakur is killed then or that shooting simply never happens. In either case, Shakur's feud with Wallace disappears. And the collective recollection of Tupac Shakur is almost entirely different. But again, another question for another time.

Originally Posted by AtriumCarceris

Bad Boy Records, I have no idea. What normally happens when the owner of a company dies?

It's a fairly big loss though, the company, his future clothing line, and he helped put a lot of people on the map with his record label. He's done a lot. Off the top of my head we might not have a popular Ciroc Vodka.

Certainly Wallace releases more albums. But we have a bigger problem here. The death of Wallace after Tupac pretty much completely ended the East coast-West Coast rivalry. If Wallace lives, and Combs dies, it might go on for longer. Whereas the death of Tupac and then Biggie was seen as sort of an equal ending, the end of Bad Boy but continued presence of Death Row might start more fires. Of course, it might just end anyway but I wouldn't think so.

Wallace's continued existence beyond more rap albums probably isn't anything special. Unlike Combs, he didn't do anything outside of rap. But then again you never know, sometimes people get discovered and brought up by other rappers, it's impossible to tell who we might have "missed" with Wallace's death.

My understanding of the East Coast West Coast Feud is that it was as much about a feud between Suge Knight and Sean Combs as it was about a feud between Shakur and Wallace. In any event, Death Row is not going to last too long here either. Suge Knight is still going to go to prison, and once that happens, Death Row is finished. It doesn't help that by that point Andre "Dr. Dre" Young had left, Tupac Shakur was dead, and Calvin "Snoop Dogg" Broadus on his way off the label. Meaning that there was an exodus of talent from Death Row between 1996 and 1998. It probably depends a lot upon how Wallace reacts to the death of Combs. Unless Wallace himself tries to flan the flames of it, which arguably a few songs off "Life After Death" excepted, Wallace never really did, the feud has to die for a few practical reasons. Suge Knight is still going to prison, Broadus and Wallace were on relatively good terms. It takes two to tango after all. With that label imploding it's hard to see the Death Row vs. Bad Boy Records feud lasting much longer, since both of those firms are probably on their way out. Maybe I'm being ignorant or overoptimistic.

The other thing to watch out for is what happens to Shawn "Jay-Z" Carter. There are those who say that the only reason Carter was as successful as he's been is that he filled the vacuum left by Wallace's death. In other words, with Wallace still around, his career may be held back a bit if that perception has any connection to reality.

[AtriumCarceris]

Originally Posted by Glass Onion

My understanding of the East Coast West Coast Feud is that it was as much about a feud between Suge Knight and Sean Combs as it was about a feud between Shakur and Wallace. In any event, Death Row is not going to last too long here either. Suge Knight is still going to go to prison, and once that happens, Death Row is finished.

Finished indeed, but only in the long view. OTL, Death Row Records's death took nearly a decade. I don't see why that length would be shortened here. ITTL, from the years between Combs's death and around 2006, Death Row is still around and, assuming Bad Boy dies with Combs, Bad Boy isn't.

Though I suppose you could speed up Death Row's death through the OTL rumor that Knight was involved with Wallace's death. ITTL, if it is thought in the popular culture that Knight was involved with the death of Combs, things could go badly for Death Row very fast, faster than IOTL.

It probably depends a lot upon how Wallace reacts to the death of Combs. Unless Wallace himself tries to flan the flames of it, which arguably a few songs off "Life After Death" excepted, Wallace never really did, the feud has to die for a few practical reasons. Suge Knight is still going to prison, Broadus and Wallace were on relatively good terms. It takes two to tango after all. With that label imploding it's hard to see the Death Row vs. Bad Boy Records feud lasting much longer, since both of those firms are probably on their way out. Maybe I'm being ignorant or overoptimistic.

It is my understanding that, given Wallace's involvement in the feud prior to his own death, he would continue to fan the flames. Especially if Knight was somehow implicated in the death of Combs, even if it wasn't true. However, you are still correct in that with Knight's incarceration, the rivalry can't go on forever and would die for practical reasons. While the Feud IOTL pretty much died with Wallace, ITTL it might go on for another two years or so, merely so Wallace can fire a few final shots. Conceivably it could go on for longer if somebody else takes offence to these hypothetical shots. It really depends on what Wallace does.

The other thing to watch out for is what happens to Shawn "Jay-Z" Carter. There are those who say that the only reason Carter was as successful as he's been is that he filled the vacuum left by Wallace's death. In other words, with Wallace still around, his career may be held back a bit if that perception has any connection to reality.

Carter had already seen success with his Début Album. If he runs into problems, it'll probably be from the loss of Bad Boy, not from Wallace's continued existence. They were after all, friends, and Carter's association with Wallace could only help his popularity (similar to say, Andre Young and Marshal Mathers). It would mean however that we'd see a completely different career for Carter, as the PoD is so close to his beginnings as a famous artist and the affect Wallace's death apparently had on him is now gone.

[Glass Onion]

My assumption was that Bad Boy would, at least on paper, last for a few years after Combs dies in much the same way Death Row somehow lasted the departure of all the name performers from the label and the incarceration of Suge Knight.

In terms of continuing the feud, the problem is two fold. What more, after "Life After Death" is there to say? And who is going to be the object of his derision. Sure, he could focus his ire at Suge Knight, but there really wouldn't be anyone who would respond to it.

I'm not sure why rumors of Knight's involvement in Combs death would be more fatal to Death Row Records than rumors of his involvement in Wallace's death was historically. I mean, yes, if they prove Knights involvement, and Knight is convicted, that's going to seriously hurt Death Row. But if it stays a rumor, I don't know if it could have that kind of impact.

[AtriumCarceris]

Originally Posted by Glass Onion

My assumption was that Bad Boy would, at least on paper, last for a few years after Combs dies in much the same way Death Row somehow lasted the departure of all the name performers from the label and the incarceration of Suge Knight.

The difference is that Knight was still alive, and so he could maintain ostensible control over the label. It's my opinion that the fall of Death Row had more to do with Andre Young leaving than anything else. Knight seems to have been a crazy incompetent guy who drove the label into the ground. After all, despite being in jail he managed to maintain control of the label.

You however can not maintain control of a label from beyond the grave.

In terms of continuing the feud, the problem is two fold. What more, after "Life After Death" is there to say? And who is going to be the object of his derision. Sure, he could focus his ire at Suge Knight, but there really wouldn't be anyone who would respond to it.

That's why I said it could be conceived to last long enough only for Wallace to take some final shots (at Knight), unless somebody gets offended and becomes the other side. As an admittedly far out example, suppose Wallace takes specific shots at then-still-active Death Row artists, like say, Snoop Dogg, Calvin Broadus. At this point in time Broadus is leaving Death Row and technically has his own label. Suppose he takes offence, and the rivalry continues with Snoop and/or Snoop Affiliates on the other side. Even then, it probably will stop soon. An Unlikely chain of events, but stranger things have happened.

I'm not sure why rumors of Knight's involvement in Combs death would be more fatal to Death Row Records than rumors of his involvement in Wallace's death was historically.

Two reasons. Combs can be considered more "important" than Wallace, being a successful businessman who signed on many successful acts as well as being a successful producer who had a promising Rap Career ahead of him. At this point, his role as a rapper would consist of only a single posthumous album. Secondly, his station is "comparable" to Knights, as they are both owners of rival labels. It's difficult for me to explain, but this seems important to me in how people would perceive the allegation.