Naval guns on an airship?

Shtudmuffin

So, I thought I'd look into the logic behind a rather popular cliche in Alternative History. Feel free to move this if it doesn't belong in this thread. In case none of you know what I'm talking about, I'm going to borrow a picture from a TL of fellow AH.com member Color-Copycat:

skylinesepia.jpg



So, how exactly would a zeppelin survive the recoil of massive naval weapons like the ones mounted on the airship in the configuration above? Wouldn't the recoil cause damage to the structure, or, at the very least, flip the zeppelin over or push it around like a feather? It seems to me that the recoil from a 15-inch naval gun could easily cause problems in a craft lighter than air itself. So, my questions are:

1) Would an airship of that size (or any size at all) be able to survive the recoil of naval guns usually reserved for battleships? Could the ship possibly be weighted to survive the recoil?

2) If so, would there be a more optimal arrangement for those guns to allow more accurate engagement of ground an naval forces as well as other airships?

3) If not, then what is the maximum size gun a ship like that could survive the recoil of? What would be their optimal arrangement?

4) Could lighter-weight armor theoretically be applied onto an airship to give it greater survivability?



Keep in mind that this is all theoretical. I know airships are cliche and borderline ASB as AH vehicles, but I was just wondering.

skylinesepia.jpg
 

StevoJH

You could possibly theoretically put guns onto an airship, but they'd have to be on the bottom, not the top.

They have to be much to lightly built to withstand the force of firing 15" guns, plus the mounts would weigh too much.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could just about fit in a 3" gun if the mount and its associated hardware were light enough though.

Missiles like the Brimstone, Mavrick or Hellfire would have to be more reasonable though since they remove the problem of recoil.
 

Color-Copycat

One broadside of 15 inch guns would cause the entire vessel to rollover and capsize. Not to mention all the structural damage to flimsy aluminum girders shoring up the hull and so forth. Though it might work if you fire straight down the central axis (defeating the whole point of the rotating turrets, though) while steaming forward at a respectable speed so that the recoil is somewhat canceled out.

I doubt you'd be able to get airborne either with fifteen inch naval guns and the accompanying shells and powder stores, regardless of lift capacity. I'm thinking five inch guns might work realistically, though.

Oh, and there's the matter of firing from a moving airborne platform. Accuracy would be damned near impossible to guarantee depending on air turbulence and who knows what else.

That being said, they look cool and so long as you suspend disbelief, they do function in ASB land. Oh, and here's one I made just today :D

aerodreadnought_of_the_4th_cruiser_squadron_by_colorcopycenter-d50a9tq.png
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
I do agree that most likely the guns would be mounted along the belly of the airship since most of your targets with, hopefully, be there. Lighter smaller caliber guns may be mounted along the dorsal spine.

Addressing the guns themselves, its unlikely that 15in guns would be mounted. The weight of the shells and powder charges alone would be prohibitive. However, the invention and adoption of electric railguns would mitigate some of the weight, tho the use of a few recoilless guns may be better. I would consider that the 5in to 8in gun would be the largest taken aloft.
 

Simreeve

You need a significantly more efficient 'lifting gas' than Hydrogen, so that you can not only carry all of that weight aloft but give the 'gasbag' part of ship a much stronger skeleton as well: Maybe the one that ERB's Martians used?
;)
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

They are balloon easily shot down that would be a waste of ressource.
They are slow as hell as well a good dca defense would make short work of them if you can even manage to build them.
 

dropbearabroad

"You need a significantly more efficient 'lifting gas' than Hydrogen"

Unfortunately that's not possible. Hydrogen has the lowest relative density/specific gravity of any gas, even ASBs can't formulate anything lighter as it's a consequence of atomic structure. The only theoretical ways round your lift problem, that I can see, are to either replace the gas with a vacuum in a light but resilient container (and even IF possible that would be inadvisable as the moment you get a leak your aerial battleship does a Titanic), or heat the gas in a flexible container (i.e. a balloon) to further decrease gas density and so increase lift. And a combination of flammable gas, heat, unarmoured gasballoon and people taking potshots at you is only likely to lead to a dramatic but brief maiden voyage.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
A single 15" gun, excluding the weight of the ammo is more than a Zeppelin can lift as payload. And then you have to add the ammo, and armor of your picture.


Shtudmuffin said:
1) Would an airship of that size (or any size at all) be able to survive the recoil of naval guns usually reserved for battleships? Could the ship possibly be weighted to survive the recoil?

2) If so, would there be a more optimal arrangement for those guns to allow more accurate engagement of ground an naval forces as well as other airships?

3) If not, then what is the maximum size gun a ship like that could survive the recoil of? What would be their optimal arrangement?

4) Could lighter-weight armor theoretically be applied onto an airship to give it greater survivability?
Click to expand...

1) No, if you mean main guns.

2) Guns would need to be at the base of the Zeppelin, where the strenght of the ship would be.

3) Based on weigh of guns, you might get one or two 15cm guns on the ships for the Germans, but I think a few 10.5 cm is likely the upper limit. This is basically a gun for unarmored ships, so it is a bit crazy, but I could see the Germans trying guns on one or two ships. A 15cm gets 20,000 yards on surface mounts, and with this much elevation, you probably gain a few thousand more yards. At the end of the trajectory, much of the forward momentum is lost and the shell is in a gravity dive, so elevations gains help, but not as much as one would think, at least if I remember the 8" tables right from many years ago.

4) Go to Helium, lose 8% lift. When filled with Helium, the ships can actually take a decent amount of small arms fire. You might try with some type of self selling air cell, if that is possible.

If you want big weapons to use on Zeppelins, they are glide bombs/missiles. The ship has a starting elevation of 5000+ feet, and the payload of a heavy bomber. You should look at weapons that work on heavy bombers WW2 up to B-2, and find one for the role. Otherwise you are just fitting AAA. It is not the sexy picture you are looking for, but a B-17 with a 50,000 weapon load and max speed of 100 mph is closer to what can be done.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

dropbearabroad said:
"You need a significantly more efficient 'lifting gas' than Hydrogen"

Unfortunately that's not possible. Hydrogen has the lowest relative density/specific gravity of any gas, even ASBs can't formulate anything lighter as it's a consequence of atomic structure. The only theoretical ways round your lift problem, that I can see, are to either replace the gas with a vacuum in a light but resilient container (and even IF possible that would be inadvisable as the moment you get a leak your aerial battleship does a Titanic), or heat the gas in a flexible container (i.e. a balloon) to further decrease gas density and so increase lift. And a combination of flammable gas, heat, unarmoured gasballoon and people taking potshots at you is only likely to lead to a dramatic but brief maiden voyage.
Click to expand...

Worse than that. Pure vacuum only gives you a tiny increment. ~6%
Remember that it is displaced airthat gives lift, and air is awfully light.
 

Astrodragon

Color-Copycat said:
One broadside of 15 inch guns would cause the entire vessel to rollover and capsize.
Click to expand...

AH, but thats a feature!

You see, you mount one BB superstructure and guns on the top, and another on the bottom. Now when you fire broadside, the airship rolls over, the bottom becomes the top, fire again, rinse and repeat!

Of course, you may have to tie the crew down....:eek:
 

Simreeve

Astrodragon said:
AH, but thats a feature!

You see, you mount one BB superstructure and guns on the top, and another on the bottom. Now when you fire broadside, the airship rolls over, the bottom becomes the top, fire again, rinse and repeat!

Of course, you may have to tie the crew down....:eek:
Click to expand...
Oh, of course! :D
 
NHBL

NHBL

ASB, but...

I always envisioned these flying battleships to be antigravity ships--then the rules go overboard. I like them--but they HAVE to be contrgravity.

As for a big gun on a lighter than air craft, you'd need something recoilless. Perhaps use gravity to get the requited velocity---wait--these are called "bombs." Or a scaled up version of the recoilless rifle.

To attack other flying craft, you need rate of fire with a moderate sized projectile--unless you have that anti-gravity to lift all the armor.

If counter/anti gravity comes along in the battleship era, the big guns would have to be on top until a whole new design of turret is built--they need gravity to point in the right direction! These ships might even be conversions of existing ships...
 
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