WW2 or WW2 analouge without Holocaust

[hfegelein]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Your list was the same as Hitler's until September 1st 1939.

That's a typical list because parties like the DNVP, DVNP and NSDAP believed in Pan-Germanism and the restoration of the territories that Germany had lost in WWI. Of course, only Hitler and the Nazi's came up with the idea of a super-mega-hyperreich with massive pogroms and ethnic cleansing; the others were more of your traditional stodgy imperialists/nationalists. (The DNVP, for example, advocated the restoration of the Hohenzollern monarchy)

[hfegelein]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Ask the US government.

Or Britain.

[Thanos6]

Well, I mean actual World Domination, there is only one country, one state, all territory belonging to one government. World Domination Classic.

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by Thanos6

Is it possible to have World Domination as your goal w/o genocide or something else equally nasty?

/not-rhetorical

I'm given to understand that Alexander the Great had such aims, while maintaining a relatively open mind. But that was a very, very different time. By the 20th century, it's very difficult to justify a very blatant war of conquest, and also very difficult to rule over a multi-national empire of any sort. The main justifications in the 20th century were often nationalism or imperialism based, and those tend to lead to those sort of nasty things.

[aoravec75]

So, is there a way to prevent fascism from gaining ground post-ww1?

[d32123]

Originally Posted by Thanos6

Well, I mean actual World Domination, there is only one country, one state, all territory belonging to one government. World Domination Classic.

That was never the realistic goal of the Soviet Union or Germany or Japan. All of them wanted to be in a position similar to the United States today (hyperpower, world's biggest economic, military, political, and cultural influence). The United States was just better at achieving that goal for a number of reasons.

[Paul V McNutt]

Have the German dictator who aspires to rule the world not be a racist. German resources would not diverted to the death camps. ( There would still be concentration camps for political prisoners) and Barbarossa would be much more successful. Germans would not be cruel to Soviet citizens. The puppet Ukrainian and Russian government would be able to raise big armies to fight as German allies.

[Maponus]

Originally Posted by Paul V McNutt

Have the German dictator who aspires to rule the world not be a racist. German resources would not diverted to the death camps. ( There would still be concentration camps for political prisoners) and Barbarossa would be much more successful. Germans would not be cruel to Soviet citizens. The puppet Ukrainian and Russian government would be able to raise big armies to fight as German allies.

Still won't stop the spontaneous mini-Holocausts that occurred all over Europe during and after the war.

[Soundgarden]

Originally Posted by hfegelein

While my last attempt at expressing my opinions on the "What if Hitler was Less Anti-Semitic" thread backfired horrifically, I feel I must give this question the old college try.

Like I said before, it's impossible for a Nazi Party lead by Hitler to not pursue some form of discrimination or genocide against the "Untermensch." Perhaps the best way for there to be a WWII analogue without a genocide like the Holocaust is for a different nationalist party to come into power. Perhaps the DNVP or the DVNP come into power, resulting in a fascist, not National Socialist Germany. They're still imperialistic and authoritarian, but more along the lines of Italian Fascism or Spanish Falangism. Of course, such a government would mean a shorter conflict, since they would only be interested in annexing Austria, Bohemia, the Sudentenland, and the Polish Corridor as opposed to pursuing wild dreams of Lebensraum in the east.

I remember that you posted Nazi Germany being more of a apartheid government where Jews were forced to accept Aryanization or leave the country. It was pretty interesting.

Personally, I think if the Nazis went by that method, they would've had a better chance at winning the war since all that wasted manpower could've been used to fight the Allies than to kill the "undesirables".

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Soundgarden

I remember that you posted Nazi Germany being more of a apartheid government where Jews were forced to accept Aryanization or leave the country. It was pretty interesting.

Personally, I think if the Nazis went by that method, they would've had a better chance at winning the war since all that wasted manpower could've been used to fight the Allies than to kill the "undesirables".

that was ecactly what happened in OTL and it didn't work.

Hitler would have had a big problem gathering enough support without his anti-Jewish propaganda. Anti-semitism was "in" He embarced anti-semitism and nurtured it like his most precious baby for the sake of propaganda. He was an oportunist, nothing more.

[Derek Jackson]

Imagine Hitler as a competent evil monster rather than bat shit crazy evil murdering monster he might have decided to postpone murdering Jewish and Gypsie people until he had clearly beaten Stalin.

In such a scenario Jewish (and other 'undesiraables') would likely be oppressed and more or less enslaved but would be alive assuming the ultimate result of WW2 was the same.

[Soundgarden]

Originally Posted by b12ox

that was ecactly what happened in OTL and it didn't work.

Hitler would have had a big problem gathering enough support without his anti-Jewish propaganda. Anti-semitism was "in" He embarced anti-semitism and nurtured it like his most precious baby for the sake of propaganda. He was an oportunist, nothing more.

Wait? Are you saying that originally the Nazis had no plans for genocide? All I'm saying is, there was no way the Nazi Crimes would not have been discovered at some point. I mean, you take the Jews and other "untermench" to God knows where, people are going to start to suspect something, considering how the Jewish Community was thriving beforehand.

In this alternate timeline, Hitler would be more rational, yet still racist/anti-semitc, and instead of trying to annihilate 10 million plus people, he could get them to assimilate, and it wouldn't be such a schlept building the concentration camps, then tearing them down to cover up their crimes.

If Hitler was aware of Jewish Intellegence, he could've used doctors and scientists to his advantage(in other words, if you help us win the war, we'll tolerate you).

But Hitler was too much of a gambler to think that far ahead. He wanted to get rid of the opposition as quick as possible, and that actually hurt his image(as well as the German people) in the long run.

Just to let you know, I am of Jewish descent, so I am not condoning those actions, but rather looking at things from a different viewpoint.

[Esopo]

Would a right wing authoritarian (Schleicher, the Stalhelm, the Nationals, Monarchists) but not nazi german government start a ww2? i think so.
Would they do the holocaust? i doubt, sincerely.
Would they use violences against jews? probably.

[Vnix]

The Germans could ofcourse instead of targeting the Jews target the Allies as their primary propaganda. Base the entire rise of germany on an extreme dislike for everything Allied and present a United German Front against them instead of trying to kill an inner Enemy.

That way a Holocaust can be averted especially if the German propaganda targets the Allied Governements.

[b12ox]

Originally Posted by Soundgarden

Wait? Are you saying that originally the Nazis had no plans for genocide? All I'm saying is, there was no way the Nazi Crimes would not have been discovered at some point. I mean, you take the Jews and other "untermench" to God knows where, people are going to start to suspect something, considering how the Jewish Community was thriving beforehand.

In this alternate timeline, Hitler would be more rational, yet still racist/anti-semitc, and instead of trying to annihilate 10 million plus people, he could get them to assimilate, and it wouldn't be such a schlept building the concentration camps, then tearing them down to cover up their crimes.

If Hitler was aware of Jewish Intellegence, he could've used doctors and scientists to his advantage(in other words, if you help us win the war, we'll tolerate you).

But Hitler was too much of a gambler to think that far ahead. He wanted to get rid of the opposition as quick as possible, and that actually hurt his image(as well as the German people) in the long run.

Just to let you know, I am of Jewish descent, so I am not condoning those actions, but rather looking at things from a different viewpoint.

Read a bit what kind of people he was gathering on his way to office. Without Jews he would get nowhere. Most polititians wouldn't even let him drive their cars. His deputy was a chicken farmer.

[Adler17]

No genocide? Probably not. No Holocaust: Possible with no Hitler ruling.

Adler

[LOTLOF]

Actually it's quite possible without any major POD.

The stated goals of Hitler and the NSDAP were to remove the Jews from Germany and later Europe. If they all could have been shipped off to the Urals or to Palestine or to Madagascar or to Antarctica it would have been completely acceptable. The 'Final Solution' didn't become policy until the Wannsee Conference in January of 1942.

All that is required to avoid the Holocaust is to have Hitler declare a different policy right from the start, and there was another policy available. Have the Fuhrer declare that the Jews were to be slave labor for the duration of the war. They go into work camps and are given just enough food to allow them to labor building whatever the military needs.

Given the likely conditions and the conditions of similar camps OTL we can still expect thousands or tens of thousands to still die, but not millions. It's still harsh and inhumane but treating them like slaves is still better than treating them as subhumans that need to be exterminated.

[Burton K Wheeler]

Originally Posted by b12ox

Read a bit what kind of people he was gathering on his way to office. Without Jews he would get nowhere. Most polititians wouldn't even let him drive their cars. His deputy was a chicken farmer.

All your posts are either about defending Hitler or talking about how the moon landing was faked.

Bye bye.

[jmc247]

Could the Holocaust have not happened with some changes to the timeline? Sure.

Could WW2 have happened without ethnic cleansing and genocial acts happening in different places? Probably not.

[Soundgarden]

Originally Posted by jmc247

Could the Holocaust have not happened with some changes to the timeline? Sure.

Could WW2 have happened without ethnic cleansing and genocial acts happening in different places? Probably not.

But those acts weren't known until the end of the war. It was the Invasion of Poland that kicked everything off. Yes, Hitler and The Nazis were known for their anti-semitism, but they didn't know to what extent. When the Holocaust was first brought up, it was dismissed as propaganda.