aeroplanes in the ACW?
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
Airplanes in the ACW
If airplanes were invented circa the 1850's
1. I would think at best you would have WW1 level airplane technology so no bombing runs on Richmond on a Dresden scale if at all. (unchivalrous)
2. Would J.E.B Stuart be a Red Baron sort of character with an air cavalry type squadron.
I don't know how possible that could be but I find the idea fascinating and full of potential.
Jason Sleeman
If airplanes were invented circa the 1850's
1. I would think at best you would have WW1 level airplane technology so no bombing runs on Richmond on a Dresden scale if at all. (unchivalrous)
2. Would J.E.B Stuart be a Red Baron sort of character with an air cavalry type squadron.
I don't know how possible that could be but I find the idea fascinating and full of potential.
Jason Sleeman
Tielhard
Banned
As Sir George Cayley only laid down the theoretical basis for aerodynamics in 1849 and IC engines only really got going in the period 1858 - 1885 you need a POD well before 1860 say 1795 someone needs to develop theoretcial aerodynamics and then they need to do lots of work with gliders then in 1830 someone needs to build a workable IC engine (or a Brayton cycle engine). In other words the ACW will be very different from our ACW and may not even happen at all.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
I saw this done in a magazine several years back. The aces were Indians, same people but butterflied out of Red Clouds war to fight in the CW, don't remember which side they were on.
Wright Bros airplane engine had an aluminum block. This would have been doubly difficult to make in the 1850's since the Hall Herroult process wasn't devised until 1886 and before then aluminum was prohibitively expensive.
OTOH I don't think all airplane engines needed one, but was even steel of the necessary strength and heat resistance for IC engines readily available? Bessemer wasn't until 1850 or so, yes? A little late for all the other work necessary to be done.
Wright Bros airplane engine had an aluminum block. This would have been doubly difficult to make in the 1850's since the Hall Herroult process wasn't devised until 1886 and before then aluminum was prohibitively expensive.
OTOH I don't think all airplane engines needed one, but was even steel of the necessary strength and heat resistance for IC engines readily available? Bessemer wasn't until 1850 or so, yes? A little late for all the other work necessary to be done.
Seems to me if there are airplanes it favors the Union.
Not just because of the larger industrial base but for the simple perspective is that even the earliest incarnations of World War era airplanes eliminate what was one of the major southern advantages.
Lee's mobility. There is no suprise. McClellan isnt going to be to be having nightmares that Lee outnumbers him.
Lee is going to have a much more difficult time stealing a march on the Union with Union Spotter planes on the lookout for his army of Northern Virginia. When he splits his army for manuvers it will be seen. Sure its not real time but a plane flying over observing(No photographs) and returning is still a lot quicker then moving an entire civil war brigade or wing into position.
The most significant thing though is wether or not the machine gun is invented early as well.
If it is and the South can make some that would have a bigger effect on the outcome of the war as it works better in a defensive setting thus negating some of the effects of larger northern production of it *but not by much* IMHO.
But if we assume it does and our focus is the Air. I figure northern and Southern pilots are going to be a bout equal. Unlike the advantage the south has in a large segment of trained marksmen and horse riders the airplane is going to be new. It will come down to time in the saddle and number's. The Union will put more in the air then the South. Barring them getting lucky and figuring out just what to do with them by sheer luck before the Union does they get slaughtered in the skies as the Union can simply afford more planes, more pilots, more flight time and to send more fighting scouts at one time against the Confederates.
Which is still useful for the Confederates as a delaying measure if the planes are to busy tangling in the sky and the brigades,wings,armies get into position to pound the damnyankees.
Course if they don't the Spotter planes would still be the mainevent. Were not talking about precision bombing taking out artillery batteries. The scouting role will be the airplanes importance in the civil war. Far outweighing the odd artillery peice put out of action by a strafing run, or general nusiance of advancing infantry.
Feel free to point out the holes in my logic.
Not just because of the larger industrial base but for the simple perspective is that even the earliest incarnations of World War era airplanes eliminate what was one of the major southern advantages.
Lee's mobility. There is no suprise. McClellan isnt going to be to be having nightmares that Lee outnumbers him.
Lee is going to have a much more difficult time stealing a march on the Union with Union Spotter planes on the lookout for his army of Northern Virginia. When he splits his army for manuvers it will be seen. Sure its not real time but a plane flying over observing(No photographs) and returning is still a lot quicker then moving an entire civil war brigade or wing into position.
The most significant thing though is wether or not the machine gun is invented early as well.
If it is and the South can make some that would have a bigger effect on the outcome of the war as it works better in a defensive setting thus negating some of the effects of larger northern production of it *but not by much* IMHO.
But if we assume it does and our focus is the Air. I figure northern and Southern pilots are going to be a bout equal. Unlike the advantage the south has in a large segment of trained marksmen and horse riders the airplane is going to be new. It will come down to time in the saddle and number's. The Union will put more in the air then the South. Barring them getting lucky and figuring out just what to do with them by sheer luck before the Union does they get slaughtered in the skies as the Union can simply afford more planes, more pilots, more flight time and to send more fighting scouts at one time against the Confederates.
Which is still useful for the Confederates as a delaying measure if the planes are to busy tangling in the sky and the brigades,wings,armies get into position to pound the damnyankees.
Course if they don't the Spotter planes would still be the mainevent. Were not talking about precision bombing taking out artillery batteries. The scouting role will be the airplanes importance in the civil war. Far outweighing the odd artillery peice put out of action by a strafing run, or general nusiance of advancing infantry.
Feel free to point out the holes in my logic.
NapoleonXIV said:
That sounds like The Wild Blue & the Grey, about a WWI where the Confederacy, along with the Republic of Oklahoma joined the war on the side of the British.
You dont need a IC Engine, A Steam Engine will do, most of the 1870~1890 experimenters used steam.
Several years ago I had a Challange thread, to use a picture of the Steam, sidewheeler AC Carrier [Wolverine IX 64] as a part of the fleet headed for Cuba in 1898.
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/usa/ix64.jpg
I wanted Planes by 1860, and carriers by 1890
dispite coming back to 1720, and pushing the steam Engine, and 1790~1800 pushing Gliders,
It was just imposible to get a realist TL allowing Airplanes by 1860
Now whe can have ~1910 planes in the Spainish/American, this allows Steam cars in the 1870~1880, [Custer chasing Sitting Bull- in Automobiles]
Several years ago I had a Challange thread, to use a picture of the Steam, sidewheeler AC Carrier [Wolverine IX 64] as a part of the fleet headed for Cuba in 1898.
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/usa/ix64.jpg
I wanted Planes by 1860, and carriers by 1890
dispite coming back to 1720, and pushing the steam Engine, and 1790~1800 pushing Gliders,
It was just imposible to get a realist TL allowing Airplanes by 1860
Now whe can have ~1910 planes in the Spainish/American, this allows Steam cars in the 1870~1880, [Custer chasing Sitting Bull- in Automobiles]
Yeah, I was wondering about steam. I know that early planes weren't great, but would a steam engine have enough power to get the propeller running fast enough to move the plane, and would it be light enough to be easily transported? After all, you've got to take the boiler and the coal along with you.
Then there's the question of what you arm the plane with in an era when Gattling guns are still the size of people.
Then there's the question of what you arm the plane with in an era when Gattling guns are still the size of people.
DuQuense said:
We are talking the difference between 1930s and 1850s steam technology. Steam engines in the 1850s were still mostly wood-fired or coal-fired, very large, very heavy and very inefficient. Vast improvements were made in the 80 years before the 1930s experiments. So it is EXTREMELY unlikely a workable steam-powered aeroplane could have been made in time for the ACW. Incidentally, there was a "working" steam powered aeroplane made in the late 1870s, but it was only capable of flying about 100 feet...
Tielhard
Banned
DuQuense,
"You dont need a IC Engine, A Steam Engine will do, ..."
'My arse' as they say. If you want a steam powered aircraft you need steam technology that has been around 150 years not 70! You could do it with a turbine if you had to but they were not around in 1850. Alternatively you could do it today with piston power and superheated steam but you would need modern (post 1900) engineering materials and methods. I'm sorry but this is just not going to happen unless someone starts making steam engines in 1690 or there about and 'invents' thermo shorty thereafter.
"You dont need a IC Engine, A Steam Engine will do, ..."
'My arse' as they say. If you want a steam powered aircraft you need steam technology that has been around 150 years not 70! You could do it with a turbine if you had to but they were not around in 1850. Alternatively you could do it today with piston power and superheated steam but you would need modern (post 1900) engineering materials and methods. I'm sorry but this is just not going to happen unless someone starts making steam engines in 1690 or there about and 'invents' thermo shorty thereafter.