The Alternate History of Modern Armor

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Michel Van

if we have to discus modern Amor suit, this is a must.


Kerberos Panzer Cop and Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade by Mamoru Oshii
This german armor suit is used in WW2 in Oshii TL

About usefulness of modern armor: the question is against what you wanna use it ?
protection against enemy bullets ?
without modern technology like lightweight Kevlar
The armor will be heavy very heavy Steel and for a blitzkrieg infantry is this literal death weight...

This simplest way to put this is time and weight. The longer you wear the given amount of armor, the less of it you can afford to wear and still be able to function.

The modern AMerica MICH helmet and MOLLE vest is about the best we have. Light, reletivly resistent to most flying pieces of random metal and the Soldier can wear it for long long hours, and even days if she has to.

It also let's her put most of her carrying weight in food, water, sundries and ammo where they belong.

The guy i nthe pic LOOKS really scarey, but if myself and my squad are wearing modern ACU MICH, and MOLLE gear that dude is smoked, the lady I have on our M249 SAW can cut his legs off for him and then where will he be?

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

The guy i nthe pic LOOKS really scarey, but if myself and my squad are wearing modern ACU MICH, and MOLLE gear that dude is smoked, the lady I have on our M249 SAW can cut his legs off for him and then where will he be?

I was just thinking "Man my 249 would make short work of him".

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Napoleon53

@Metd and Simreeve: Seriously? A Dragunov?

Oh yeah, Dragunovs are a favorite for Iraqi snipers. Hell, I've heard of them using Mosin-Nagants and K98s!

I wish my enemy looked like that. Nice, big, slow moving target, with easily discernible soft spots? Fuck yeah.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

I was just thinking "Man my 249 would make short work of him".

Great minds, dudicus, fuckin' A.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Oh yeah, Dragunovs are a favorite for Iraqi snipers. Hell, I've heard of them using Mosin-Nagants and K98s!


I wish my enemy looked like that. Nice, big, slow moving target, with easily discernible soft spots? Fuck yeah.

I know right, if only al lthe bad guys came packaged that way

[Gunnarnz]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I know right, if only al lthe bad guys came packaged that way

One of the things that sort of armour CAN help with is protection against fragments, and since I used to be an FO I was thinking about how I'd feel if all the targets I called in fire on had that sort of protection.
On balance I think I'd be okay with it - the lethal zone of each round might be a bit smaller due to the protection, but they won't be able to get out of the area as quickly or take advantage of cover as well, so I'd call it even. Make it 5 rounds FFE instead of 4, and call it a day. And if you have ICM or prox-fuse rounds available then the advantage gained from the armour would be even less.
The only thing that might change is there might be a greater proportion of lighter wounds, since the armour could turn marginal hits from fragments into flesh wounds rather than penetrating trauma. So that could work either way; either more effectives to resist when the infantry go in to mop up or greater demands on the enemy support services (dead soldiers require a lot less care than wounded ones).

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Gunnarnz

One of the things that sort of armour CAN help with is protection against fragments, and since I used to be an FO I was thinking about how I'd feel if all the targets I called in fire on had that sort of protection.
On balance I think I'd be okay with it - the lethal zone of each round might be a bit smaller due to the protection, but they won't be able to get out of the area as quickly or take advantage of cover as well, so I'd call it even. Make it 5 rounds FFE instead of 4, and call it a day. And if you have ICM or prox-fuse rounds available then the advantage gained from the armour would be even less.
The only thing that might change is there might be a greater proportion of lighter wounds, since the armour could turn marginal hits from fragments into flesh wounds rather than penetrating trauma. So that could work either way; either more effectives to resist when the infantry go in to mop up or greater demands on the enemy support services (dead soldiers require a lot less care than wounded ones).

How much does that stuff weign?

How much effort is it to carry around and wear?

How hot is it in there?

It LOOKS worse that M.O.P.P. 3 NBC gear.

How much, or rather how little ammo can he carry due to the weight of that halloween suit he's got on?

Do you know what I mean?

[metastasis_d]

Gonna look pretty suspicious when your VA disability application says "got heatstroke and heat exhaustion in the Winter War".

[Gunnarnz]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do know what you mean, and I've been saying similar things since the start of the thread. We just don't have the materials yet to make full suits of armour that are light and strong and allow you to move freely and are well-ventilated and don't impair your senses and so on and so on.
Looks cool? Arguably (comes down to personal taste). Practical? Not yet.

[Kome]

Originally Posted by Napoleon53

Wow, I always think of them using old machine guns and explosives, not something that advanced.

And machinegun-sniperrifles!

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Gonna look pretty suspicious when your VA disability application says "got heatstroke and heat exhaustion in the Winter War".

Yeah, that might raise some eyebrows. LOL.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Gunnarnz

Yes, I do know what you mean, and I've been saying similar things since the start of the thread. We just don't have the materials yet to make full suits of armour that are light and strong and allow you to move freely and are well-ventilated and don't impair your senses and so on and so on.
Looks cool? Arguably (comes down to personal taste). Practical? Not yet.

Something about that face mask keeps bothering me, I finally realized what it was.

VISION!

How do you SEE in that thing, more to the point, how do your squaddies see you, combat is noisy and lots of time people are reduced to reading lips. tough to do in one of those.

[Napoleon53]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Something about that face mask keeps bothering me, I finally realized what it was.

VISION!

How do you SEE in that thing, more to the point, how do your squaddies see you, combat is noisy and lots of time people are reduced to reading lips. tough to do in one of those.

The answer is: you don't.





Oh, and I found something interesting. German WWI mask eye-holes = Star Wars Imperial ship windows anyone?

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Napoleon53

The answer is: you don't.





Oh, and I found something interesting. German WWI mask eye-holes = Star Wars Imperial ship windows anyone?

Now you know why real soldiers don't dress like Clone Troopers/ Imperial Storm Troopers. ESP regarding the facemasts/helmets.

If you can't see, or communicate, you become DEAD Soldier, and then you are in a world of shit.

Because a Soldier is not allowed to die without PERMISSION!

[Napoleon53]

It worked in WWI. Well, sort of. It's kind of hard for it not to work when your only job is to sprint as fast as you can at machine gun nests.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Napoleon53

It worked in WWI. Well, sort of. It's kind of hard for it not to work when your only job is to sprint as fast as you can at machine gun nests.

Given the death toll on both sides of any given engagement in World War one, I would call the success rate of those mask,...questionable at best.

[MattII]

Yeah well I wouldn't have wanted to see what the death toll would have been like without them.

[metastasis_d]

Death by bullet or death by gas... Not a nice choice.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Death by bullet or death by gas... Not a nice choice.

A 19th century war fought with 20th century weapons is a ClusterF&%$ no matter how you slice it.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

A 19th century war fought with 20th century weapons is a ClusterF&%$ no matter how you slice it.

Well then I'm glad I was on the side with 21st century weapons in Iraq.
God I love air support.