What would happen if the Germans managed to win the Battle of Britain (from what've ive read, if they had kept destroying ther oirgional targets, they could've) and how would this effect the outcome of World War 2? would the unmentionalble Seamamal be able to be launched? would this allow the Nazi's to win the war?
WI: Germany wins Battle of Britain
- Thread starter Kaiser K
- Start date
ACM Dowding planned to pull his fighters back north of the Thames if the Germans made the airfields in Ken untenable. Now that meant that Fighter Command could still contest the airspace over southen England, but that Luftwaffe Bf.109s would no longer be able to escort bombers attacking operational airfields.
The fact is that the Germans can't actually win the BoB.
The fact is that the Germans can't actually win the BoB.
Somehow, we should define "win" in this context?
Why BoB? To gain air superiority over South East England?
Why: to prepare the way for the Sea "thing"
Hitler: "... and to carry it out if necessary.."
So, although interlinked on the face of it, it was not 100% clear.
Could Germany have left Britain alone after France? Just using subs and naval aircraft to bomb RN and convoys?
Remember, the torpedo bombers were very effective.
Using LW to keep RAF busy in South East?
Without the sea "thingy" as the objective, is this then a "win" or a "draw"?
If all the resorces of BoB had been channelled into the Med, then Malta/Crete?gibraltar could have been different.
LW was basically chaing RN out of the Med. Combine it with a courageous Italian navy, and then?
Ivan
Ivan
Why BoB? To gain air superiority over South East England?
Why: to prepare the way for the Sea "thing"
Hitler: "... and to carry it out if necessary.."
So, although interlinked on the face of it, it was not 100% clear.
Could Germany have left Britain alone after France? Just using subs and naval aircraft to bomb RN and convoys?
Remember, the torpedo bombers were very effective.
Using LW to keep RAF busy in South East?
Without the sea "thingy" as the objective, is this then a "win" or a "draw"?
If all the resorces of BoB had been channelled into the Med, then Malta/Crete?gibraltar could have been different.
LW was basically chaing RN out of the Med. Combine it with a courageous Italian navy, and then?
Ivan
Ivan
Winning a Airwar is one thing, to do unmentionalble Seamamal is another !
the question is how high is the prize of victory for the Luftwaffe ?
if the loses like OTL Battle of Britain, Herman Goering has major problem: the Luftwaffe is almost bled to death
in particular on lost of skilled pilots, with other words a Pyrrhic victory
And Wehrmacht need a massive Air-support for unmentionalble Seamamal. what Goering cant't no offer
next to that the landing-boats have to pass the Royal Navy
the question is how high is the prize of victory for the Luftwaffe ?
if the loses like OTL Battle of Britain, Herman Goering has major problem: the Luftwaffe is almost bled to death
in particular on lost of skilled pilots, with other words a Pyrrhic victory
And Wehrmacht need a massive Air-support for unmentionalble Seamamal. what Goering cant't no offer
next to that the landing-boats have to pass the Royal Navy
To win BoB (if by "win" you mean make Dowding withdraw the RAF from southern England) you have to get rid of Keith Park from No. 11 Group, if you can't do that then you're shot, because frankly the German pilots were suffering horrendous attrition come the end, especially because the British were getting back every pilot that wasn't killed or injured, Germany was losing every the total crew of every aircraft that didn't return to base.
That is actually a big factor many people forget, every time one of the Luftwaffe planes goes down, they lose everything, pilot and all. When the RAF lose a plane, there's a chance that the pilot can escape and if he does without injury, he's back in the air within the week, little bit smarter for that too probably.
Another big factor is R&R, in the RAF it was enforced, Germany didn't have the pilots to allow it, so the 'shortage' of pilots in the RAF was actually due to their being prepared for a long fight.
Oh and the German training schools weren't able to output pilots at the rate they were losing them.
Oh and the German training schools weren't able to output pilots at the rate they were losing them.
usertron2020
Donor
Best for Germany? They maintain operational control of British skies in SE England for a time, but the rate of attrition means destroying much of the Luftwaffe. So pretty much just some face saving for Goering, and that's it.
The whole BoB was built on what Halder would eventually realise was 'a fundamental misunderstanding of the British fighting spirit'. Sea Lion and the BoB as part of it were both planned and prepared in anticipation of a British surrender making them unnecessary. They were means of keeping up the pressure on the British people to turf out Churchill and seek peace with the new European order.
All that's necessary, therefore, is for either a freak accident to kill the PM or for some serious political butterflies to lead to his removal and for the British to give up. Of course, IOTL and probably in any non-ASB ATL, this can't work, as Halder said above - to give up while under threat is simply not in the OTL British gameplan.
All that's necessary, therefore, is for either a freak accident to kill the PM or for some serious political butterflies to lead to his removal and for the British to give up. Of course, IOTL and probably in any non-ASB ATL, this can't work, as Halder said above - to give up while under threat is simply not in the OTL British gameplan.
That's the point.
"Win" can mean tactical superiority for a while, but waht does that do long-term - sort of strategic thinking?
Tactical "victory" without the sea thing -> useless
Strategic "win" would be RAF gone, but that would be rather impossible
If "win" would be to put pressure on Churchill et al to go for peace terms, it was not good enough
so what would "lose" mean?
1) LW not a threat? somewhat achieved
2) No sea creature? achieved
3) ..?
Ivan
"Win" can mean tactical superiority for a while, but waht does that do long-term - sort of strategic thinking?
Tactical "victory" without the sea thing -> useless
Strategic "win" would be RAF gone, but that would be rather impossible
If "win" would be to put pressure on Churchill et al to go for peace terms, it was not good enough
so what would "lose" mean?
1) LW not a threat? somewhat achieved
2) No sea creature? achieved
3) ..?
Ivan
Anaxagoras
Banned
I agree with what seems to be the general consensus. Even if the Germans "win" the battle by forcing the RAF to pull away from southeast England, there is nothing they gain strategically. The Unmentionable Sea Mammal is still a non-starter and the British are not going to be pressured into seeking a peace. In the meantime, simply attempting to maintain air superiority over southeast England will lead to steady attrition within the Luftwaffe that will eventually allow the RAF to regain control of the air there.
Stage a coup against Hitler, before Barbarossa gets launched, and sue for peace.
Anaxagoras
Banned
Prevent British bombing against Germany and occupied Europe, assist the Kriegsmarine in prosecuting the Battle of the Atlantic, and otherwise focus on the Mediterranean theater.
Cute. But also true.
"Hail Britiania, Britiainia rules the waves,
Britons never Never NEVER shall be slaves!"
That is why the BOB and OSL are both losing options.
Say what ever else you want about the British people but do NOT call them cowards and do NOT point a gun at them and believe for a minute that they will do anything other than wrest it from your hands and kill you with it.
At America's heart we are their projeny and we are very much our mother's Daughter.
Go Britian, Go U.S.A.
Britons never Never NEVER shall be slaves!"
That is why the BOB and OSL are both losing options.
Say what ever else you want about the British people but do NOT call them cowards and do NOT point a gun at them and believe for a minute that they will do anything other than wrest it from your hands and kill you with it.
At America's heart we are their projeny and we are very much our mother's Daughter.
Go Britian, Go U.S.A.