Our Treaty of Versailles

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Imajin

There were some earlier posts that said it wanted to OTL...

It raises an interesting question. Do we have a Helvetican here?

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I'd expect Poland and Romania to share a border.

How will you break up the Croats and the Slovenes from the Kingdom of Blah, Blah and Blah?

If you give Italy Dalmatia, they'll have to sacrifice some of that Slovenian territory.

Even if the Entente reduces Greek and Armenian gains in Turkey (unlikely they'd go as far as you show), why would they give the Turks Bulgarian land? They don't particulary like Muslims.

I stand by my position that an Anschluss will be unacceptable.

[LordKalvan]

Croatia would be an independent state: choose your pick (monarchy vs. republic).
Slovenia might be shared between Italy and a Federal republic of Austria.
The Anschluss is out of the question.

For Greece vs. Turkey: maybe stronger support by the Entente (and in particular Britain coming out of the bush, and declaring a policy for Constantinople) might butterfly away the Turco-Greek war.

What about a Free State (guaranteed by the Powers) in Constantinople and the Straits, the Greeks getting Smyrna, with a moderate hinterland, and Bulgarian Thrace; Adrianople remaining turkish; Trabzon and some portion of the coast being set up as Pontus?

I still don't see what might be made for Armenians: they are between USSR and Turkey, and too far away to be effectively protected by the Powers guarantee (the same applies to Pontus too, btw)

[Wendell]

The USSR would not yet have exerted itself in Transcaucasia.

[LordKalvan]

Which, in a sense, it is even worse. The Caucasus in the years just after the end of WW1 is in shambles, with Whites, Reds, Georgians, Armenians, Pan-turkists, and a lot of other minor groups fighting each other. And - sooner or later - Trotski's Red Army will come. Or the Turkish army, after the war with the Greeks.
If I remember right, in 1921 (might have been 1920 or 1922), king Victor Emmanuel 3rd of Italy was offered the crown (?!) of Armenia and Georgia by a delegation of notables in visit to Rome (actually, the Savoys had a claim - don't ask me about its validity - on the Armenian crown, claim inherited through the Montferrats). Luckily, no one took the delegation seriously.

[Glen]

I think we ought to revive this thread.

Boy, I'm starting to appreciate how much of this wasn't the making of Versailles, but rather their attempt to cope with what was happening in Europe around them.

[Wendell]

How about this for the outcome of an alternative Treaty of Versailles?

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Wendell

How about this for the outcome of an alternative Treaty of Versailles?

Shouldn't Poland be called Poland-Lithuania? How we get those two together, bribery...umm, I mean economic aid package?

The map should show Byelarus, Ukraine, and Georgia at this time, as they had not been taken back by the USSR.

Not really a lot of change on this map from OTL other than Germany, Poland, and Lithuania.

This might be enough to stop the creation of a Nazi Germany, but we still are likely to see war or some such between Hungary and Romania or Hungary and Yugoslavia. Also still see Il Duce arising....

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Glen Finney

Shouldn't Poland be called Poland-Lithuania? How we get those two together, bribery...umm, I mean economic aid package?

That could be one of several ways to get them both back together. Its form of government could be interesting. This country could even be called Miedzymorze. Might the capital be Wilno (Vilnius) rather than Warsaw?

The map should show Byelarus, Ukraine, and Georgia at this time, as they had not been taken back by the USSR.

Correct. They are not demarcated for two reasons. First, the Russian Civil War is still ongoing, so things are not settled. Secondly, those borders were not delineated on my basemap Also, the eastern border of Poland on this map dates from 1922.

Not really a lot of change on this map from OTL other than Germany, Poland, and Lithuania.

True. I am considering adding Luxembourg to Belgium, and might return Eupen and Malmedy to Germany.

This might be enough to stop the creation of a Nazi Germany, but we still are likely to see war or some such between Hungary and Romania or Hungary and Yugoslavia. Also still see Il Duce arising....

Nonetheless, such a war will likely be smaller. It would be interesting, nonetheless.

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by Glen Finney

Shouldn't Poland be called Poland-Lithuania? How we get those two together, bribery...umm, I mean economic aid package?

The map should show Byelarus, Ukraine, and Georgia at this time, as they had not been taken back by the USSR.

Not really a lot of change on this map from OTL other than Germany, Poland, and Lithuania.

This might be enough to stop the creation of a Nazi Germany, but we still are likely to see war or some such between Hungary and Romania or Hungary and Yugoslavia. Also still see Il Duce arising....

Italy got something less than OTL (Zara), so they'll be even more pissed off: 100% sure that there will be a Fascist movement.

Yugoslavia apparently managed an even better border with Austria (is it Styria?), and also the border with Italy is too much West.

Romania has got too much. Hungary is another nation which has been heavily penalised. And Bulgaria too: it looks like awfully small.

The border between Greece and Turkey is the 1923 one: what happened to the ethnic Greeks in Pontus and around Smyrna? Turkey apparently got back both Rhodes and Cyprus, but this might be a mistake.

It is not possible to see what happened in Caucasus and Armenia.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by LordKalvan

Italy got something less than OTL (Zara), so they'll be even more pissed off: 100% sure that there will be a Fascist movement.

Yugoslavia apparently managed an even better border with Austria (is it Styria?), and also the border with Italy is too much West.

Romania has got too much. Hungary is another nation which has been heavily penalised. And Bulgaria too: it looks like awfully small.

The border between Greece and Turkey is the 1923 one: what happened to the ethnic Greeks in Pontus and around Smyrna? Turkey apparently got back both Rhodes and Cyprus, but this might be a mistake.

It is not possible to see what happened in Caucasus and Armenia.

Part of the problem is that my basemap was riddled with errors.

[benedict XVII]

Italians don't get the Dodecanese either...

[philjd]

How about building in some additional rules for the American banking industry.... hence avoiding the depression, which led to the collapse of Weimar and the taking of power by the Nazis.....

Maybe dress this up in some form of global ecopnomic package for resolving the loans/reparation issue?

AIGF of course.

regards
Phil

[Valdemar II]

A Idea to a alternative Versailles, Austria is made rather strong to discourage unification with Germany, and a inderpendent confederation of transsylvania is created, because of the impossible mix of people (and because I want it ), Germany keeps Danzig/Gdansk to avoid a later war between Germany and Poland

[Nicole]

Poland lost it's access to the sea, though...

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Imajin

Poland lost it's access to the sea, though...

I'm sorry but a Poland with acces to the sea are going to end badly

If they have German harbor, it will end with war, if they have Lithuania, its going to end with a civil war.

[luakel]

Originally Posted by Wendell

How about this for the outcome of an alternative Treaty of Versailles?

Really nice map. But as Glen said, Hungary and Italy are likely to go on rampaged, so I'd give each country some more land than in OTL. Hell, I'd go the whole way and break Yugoslavia up, giving it's land to surrounding countries as well as Serbia and Montenegro, not to mention a possible Croatia. And I'd also give Austria to Germany, and consider the Sudtenland as well...

[Othniel]

Serbia should go into federation with Montegro, and also get Bosnia. Italy should get lands with Croat majorities, though the intieriro jut should go to Hungary...Romania should be awarded the Carpathian Mountains, while Hungary should keep most of Transylvania... Oh and Hungary should get the Hungarian parts of Austria.. Poland gets Krakow, and Galcia...

[Nicole]

I don't think Hungary should get the Burgenland- I'd give it the Hungarian parts of Slovakia, however.

I wonder, could this idea come into being?

[Othniel]

Originally Posted by Imajin

I don't think Hungary should get the Burgenland

Your right, it should get Vienna too.