The clean fight: America and the ALlies "White Knight " it in World War Two.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Ah, I see, so basically the RL version of the war really WAS the best of all possible worlds.

Eh, that's a major overstatement. It would really have been the best of all worlds if Germany had been stopped in the 1940 invasion, as at that point the USSR's involvement would be unlikely and that averts both the Holocaust (because the Germans don't have enough Jews or enough to divert to that or for that matter the Hitler-myth to fall back on) and the Eastern Bloc.

[juanml82]

The Allied bombing campaign could have disregarded night bombing, as it was ineffective and targeted power plants. It would have prevented the killing of those evohl German 5 years old kids some people advocate while at the same time disruption production as factories without power can't work.

So, there you have. Not a full 'white knights scenario', but far less atrocious and, yet, effective.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by juanml82

The Allied bombing campaign could have disregarded night bombing, as it was ineffective and targeted power plants. It would have prevented the killing of those evohl German 5 years old kids some people advocate while at the same time disruption production as factories without power can't work.

So, there you have. Not a full 'white knights scenario', but far less atrocious and, yet, effective.

I think I read somewhere that the American night bombing was in concert with British day bombing designed to keep the pressure up 24/7. but I agree, no need for night bombing just bomb in daylight when we can see better.

[AdA]

The allies did very little to prevent the which hunting and score setting that took place in many European Countries after the liberation. They mostly stood by and let people who claimed to have been on the right side all along, and in some cases had just turned freedom fighter when the first Sherman drove into their town, kill, torture, rape and humiliate people they just claimed had been pro nazi. A rational can be made, however twisted, for carpet bombing working class neighbourhoods, but when you take a country you have to run it, not hand it to the mob.
Many real nazi sympathisers escaped unharmed, many locally unpopular but innocent people got hurt, and the liberators seem to have enjoyed the show.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by AdA

The allies did very little to prevent the which hunting and score setting that took place in many European Countries after the liberation. They mostly stood by and let people who claimed to have been on the right side all along, and in some cases had just turned freedom fighter when the first Sherman drove into their town, kill, torture, rape and humiliate people they just claimed had been pro nazi. A rational can be made, however twisted, for carpet bombing working class neighbourhoods, but when you take a country you have to run it, not hand it to the mob.
Many real nazi sympathisers escaped unarmed, many locally unpopular but innocent people got hurt, and the liberators seem to have enjoyed the show.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with you here.

[AdA]

Remember all those western movies of the late 40/50s were the sheriff prevents the mob from killing the murderer in his jail, and keeps him unhurt until a fair trial. Maybe somebody was feeling guilty for stuff they had seen in France in 44.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by AdA

Remember all those western movies of the late 40/50s were the sheriff prevents the mob from killing the murderer in his jail, and keeps him unhurt until a fair trial. Maybe somebody was feeling guilty for stuff they had seen in France in 44.

Given that John ford made that movie like three times, I would say,

Probably.

[King Midas]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I think I read somewhere that the American night bombing was in concert with British day bombing designed to keep the pressure up 24/7. but I agree, no need for night bombing just bomb in daylight when we can see better.

'Tother way around. USAAF by day, RAF by night.

[hairysamarian]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

...at that point the USSR's involvement would be unlikely and that averts both the Holocaust (because the Germans don't have enough Jews or enough to divert to that or for that matter the Hitler-myth to fall back on) ....

That's purely wishful thinking. Expulsions, confiscations and other measures were already underway by the end of 1938, at least. The writing was on the wall. Keeping the Germans out of Russia certainly prevents the Holocaust in those territories, but Hitler and his followers had been telegraphing their plans plainly for years. Unless the Nazis are out of power altogether, some version of the Holocaust happens.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by hairysamarian

That's purely wishful thinking. Expulsions, confiscations and other measures were already underway by the end of 1938, at least. The writing was on the wall. Keeping the Germans out of Russia certainly prevents the Holocaust in those territories, but Hitler and his followers had been telegraphing their plans plainly for years. Unless the Nazis are out of power altogether, some version of the Holocaust happens.

Actually, not quite. You'd see a great deal of massacres, but the organized executions that characterized the OTL Holocaust are unlikely to appear unless a Barbarossa of the OTL scale happens. It'd be more like Tsarist Pogroms dialed up to 11.

[Mr.J]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I think I read somewhere that the American night bombing was in concert with British day bombing designed to keep the pressure up 24/7. but I agree, no need for night bombing just bomb in daylight when we can see better.

I'm pretty sure that the British bombed at night and the Americans bombed during the day (we were much more concerned than Bomber Harris with at least keeping up the idea of precision bombing, even if it often turned out to be just more area bombing in practice).

There's this neat passage in The Affluent Society where Galbraith talks about the firebombing of Hamburg, and how a few months after the bombing Hamburg's war production was actually higher than it was before the war, because all the little civillian industries and services had been destroyed by the firestorm, and the newly unemployed masses were put to work in war plants - since they'd just seen their city wiped out by the enemy, most of the people were pretty patriotic. OTOH, daylight bombing produced very high and for a bit in 1942 totally unsustainable attrition rates for bombers.

Like I said, there's not really a perfect solution. Except for France kicking Hitler's ass in 1940, or 1938. And even then, there's still, well, a war, so it's not exactly perfect.

[Just Leo]

Originally Posted by Mr.J

I'm pretty sure that the British bombed at night and the Americans bombed during the day (we were much more concerned than Bomber Harris with at least keeping up the idea of precision bombing, even if it often turned out to be just more area bombing in practice).

There's this neat passage in The Affluent Society where Galbraith talks about the firebombing of Hamburg, and how a few months after the bombing Hamburg's war production was actually higher than it was before the war, because all the little civillian industries and services had been destroyed by the firestorm, and the newly unemployed masses were put to work in war plants - since they'd just seen their city wiped out by the enemy, most of the people were pretty patriotic. OTOH, daylight bombing produced very high and for a bit in 1942 totally unsustainable attrition rates for bombers.
Like I said, there's not really a perfect solution. Except for France kicking Hitler's ass in 1940, or 1938. And even then, there's still, well, a war, so it's not exactly perfect.

German war production numbers were higher after the bombing of Hamburg because additional Russian slave laborers were available, to add to the other "guest" laborers from other occupied countries. British war production rose after the bombing of Coventry, without slave labor. What's it all mean? If Germany wasn't bombed, would war production slow down, or stop?

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by King Midas

'Tother way around. USAAF by day, RAF by night.

See? shows how much I know. Thanks for the correction. Knowledge is power.

[Gunnarnz]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Knowledge is power.

Power = energy converted over time. Energy is equivalent to mass through E= mc^2. Therefore, knowledge = mass.

All of which means that a good bookshop is nothing more than a genteel black hole that has learnt to read.
This can be verified experimentally; notice how the better a bookshop is, the longer you spend inside it? That's because more energy is required to escape it's event horizon.

(apologies to Terry Pratchett)

[hugh lupus]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

I think I read somewhere that the American night bombing was in concert with British day bombing designed to keep the pressure up 24/7. but I agree, no need for night bombing just bomb in daylight when we can see better.

Possibly not due to different design criteria in the US lead to the B17 and 24 heavily armed long distance bombers with a relitivly light bomb load which lead to the tactics of formation flying and bombing en mass with the idea that the massed fire power of the bomber wing would defeat any enemy fighter. This was a relic of 'the bomber will always get through espoused pre war by Balbo and Trenchard. Alas this turned out not to be the case and the USSAAF gradually switched over to area bombing by these aircraft,whille trying to maintain precision bombing with smaller aircraft.
The British started out also with the 'bomber is superior' concept ,but several disasterious daylight raids convinced them that night time bombing saved crews alas aiming was not possible with this technique and after investigation it was tacitly agreed to area bomb, after much soul searching I might add.
Also dont foget that the Lancaster and Halifax could carry a heavier bomb load BUT at the expense of defensive fire power. Rifle calibre machine guns with short range and little hitting power. So once again night area bombing makes sense .
55.000 British and commonwealth bomber command crew died in WW2 including 2 of my mothers cousins. this rate of fatality approached that of the Somme
I would hate to think what the butchers bill would be if the RAF continued with daylight bombing

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by hugh lupus

Possibly not due to different design criteria in the US lead to the B17 and 24 heavily armed long distance bombers with a relitivly light bomb load which lead to the tactics of formation flying and bombing en mass with the idea that the massed fire power of the bomber wing would defeat any enemy fighter. This was a relic of 'the bomber will always get through espoused pre war by Balbo and Trenchard. Alas this turned out not to be the case and the USSAAF gradually switched over to area bombing by these aircraft,whille trying to maintain precision bombing with smaller aircraft.
The British started out also with the 'bomber is superior' concept ,but several disasterious daylight raids convinced them that night time bombing saved crews alas aiming was not possible with this technique and after investigation it was tacitly agreed to area bomb, after much soul searching I might add.
Also dont foget that the Lancaster and Halifax could carry a heavier bomb load BUT at the expense of defensive fire power. Rifle calibre machine guns with short range and little hitting power. So once again night area bombing makes sense .
55.000 British and commonwealth bomber command crew died in WW2 including 2 of my mothers cousins. this rate of fatality approached that of the Somme
I would hate to think what the butchers bill would be if the RAF continued with daylight bombing

Yeah, I found out I got it wrong, and yes, the casualties were mucho nasty. YEEK!

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Gunnarnz

Power = energy converted over time. Energy is equivalent to mass through E= mc^2. Therefore, knowledge = mass.

All of which means that a good bookshop is nothing more than a genteel black hole that has learnt to read.
This can be verified experimentally; notice how the better a bookshop is, the longer you spend inside it? That's because more energy is required to escape it's event horizon.

(apologies to Terry Pratchett)

GADZOOKS! YOU'RE RIGHT!

[hugh lupus]

Seriously if the idea of the moral side of WW2 interests you ,and obviously it does or why start the thread ,then the book I mentioned earlier is the only one you need.I would lend you my copy ,but I fear the postage would be a trifle excessive

[MattII]

Originally Posted by hugh lupus

I would hate to think what the butchers bill would be if the RAF continued with daylight bombing

Depends on whether they can get a good escort fighter, because as the B-17s proved, no amount of guns can really fend off fighters.

[hugh lupus]

Originally Posted by MattII

Depends on whether they can get a good escort fighter, because as the B-17s proved, no amount of guns can really fend off fighters.

Having long rang fighters such as the p51 and P47 as escorts did save a few American Bombers of course and if The RAF had comparable fighters they may have changed tactics, though I doubt it.
Two things to consider here ,firstly both schools of thought were 'right' in as much that they both worked and more importantly complimented each other.And secondly having two different techniques forced the Nazis to develop differing answers ,further diluting their resources.