Draft Peace Treaty Between USA and CSA

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Fiver

I’d expect each side to send 3 to 5 negotiators, not two. The imbalance in skill and prominence is striking. Jefferson Davis, for perhaps the first time in his life has chosen men based on skill, not personal friendship. Odds are low he’d pick Breckinridge and virtually non-existant that he’d pick Stephens for the position. Benjamin would certainly be on Davis’ list, other possibilities would be Hunter, Toombs, Chestnut, Harris, Mason, and Slidell.

In contrast, the POTUS is apparently a Peace Democrat who's doing a below-average job on picking negotiators. Dix is reasonable as a fourth or fifth delegate, Parker has no real reason to be chosen.



Scratch “Friendship”, replace it with “Amity”, as per period treaties.

Article 2 is a major concession by the Union.
Article 6 requires the Union make major concessions on Virginia, Florida, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Arkansas, as well as minor concessions on North Carolina. It requires the Confederacy make significant concessions on West Virginia and Missouri, a minor concession on Indian Territory, and trivial concessions in Maryland and New Mexico.
Article 7 is major concession by the Union.
Article 9 looks like a credible compromise. The Confederacy gives up claim to escaped slaves; the Union gives up claim to the property of Union citizens impressed by the Confederate government. Unless this also means the Union gives up all claims related to CSA commerce raiding, in which case this is another major concession by the Union.
Article 10 is a major concession by the Union.
Article 11 is a trivial concession by the Confederacy.
Article 12 is a minor concession by the Confederacy. It would be significant if Union ships were also exempted from harbor fees or a major concession if military ships were allowed.
Article 13 would be rejected by both the Union and Confederate Congress as usurping their authority.
Article 14 is confusing as heck. What is it supposed to mean?
Article 15 is multiple major concessions by the Union. It requires them to return escaped slaves; protect Confederate commerce, possibly even illegal commerce in slaves, with the Union Navy; and impound and return to the Confederacy any ships or cargoes captured by military foes of the Confederacy that enter Union territorial waters.

The US Congress would only ratify a treaty this lopsided if the Confederate Army was holding them at gunpoint.

Yeah, I don't see them ratifying this short of the CSA besieging NYC.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Reggie Bartlett

The CSA gives up it's claim to Tennessee and Indian Territory, why?

Both were actively part of the CSA and pro-Confederate.

Even then, why would they carve out unionist enclaves deep in CS territory? What is the use of it? Especially those south of Tennessee (no Confederate "claim", it was actually Confederate) where the Union would have no sway in the CSA's sovereign territory come the foreign recognition.

TN is a done deal. It is completely under Union control. The CSA is never getting TN back because it has no way of retaking it. The Indian Territory is more questionable. As far as the Unionist enclaves it is quite possible if the Union Army is sitting on them. Seeing where they are positioned it looks quite likely. In war possession is 99/100th of the law!

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Fiver

I’d expect each side to send 3 to 5 negotiators, not two.

Hmm. . . I guess I meant to suggest that these two men were leading their delegations, not composing the entire delegation. I should clarify this and include more names.

Originally Posted by Fiver

The imbalance in skill and prominence is striking. Jefferson Davis, for perhaps the first time in his life has chosen men based on skill, not personal friendship. Odds are low he’d pick Breckinridge and virtually non-existant that he’d pick Stephens for the position. Benjamin would certainly be on Davis’ list, other possibilities would be Hunter, Toombs, Chestnut, Harris, Mason, and Slidell.

I picked Stephens because he actually did represent the Confederacy at the closest thing resembling peace talks that the two sides ever had (though Davis and known they would fail) and because Davis now would have much of his attention focused on the post-war politics of an independence Confederacy. Breckinridge was chosen because he and Davis were on very good terms and for his pre-war political prominence (especially in his home state of Kentucky).

And the POD has Benjamin in Europe.

Originally Posted by Fiver

In contrast, the POTUS is apparently a Peace Democrat who's doing a below-average job on picking negotiators. Dix is reasonable as a fourth or fifth delegate, Parker has no real reason to be chosen.

Quite so. Dix was picked mostly because he had worked with the Confederates on prisoner exchanges.

Originally Posted by Fiver

Scratch “Friendship”, replace it with “Amity”, as per period treaties.

You're right. Will do.

Originally Posted by Fiver

Article 13 would be rejected by both the Union and Confederate Congress as usurping their authority.

It's basically the standard language of "most favored nation" trade treaties from the time.

Originally Posted by Fiver

Article 14 is confusing as heck. What is it supposed to mean?

Nothing too big. Just arranging for each side to have consulates and agents in one another's commercial centers. Again, pretty standard in trade treaties for the time.

Originally Posted by Fiver

Article 15 is multiple major concessions by the Union. It requires them to return escaped slaves; protect Confederate commerce, possibly even illegal commerce in slaves, with the Union Navy; and impound and return to the Confederacy any ships or cargoes captured by military foes of the Confederacy that enter Union territorial waters.

I think people are inflating the importance of this article (which comes from the trade treaty Jefferson negotiated with Prussia in the 1780s). It basically means that if ships or other property is lost or stolen in the ports or offshore waters of the other, the local authorities should help them recover it just as if they were citizens of the resident nation. But I'll try to find different language to clarify what it means in a more easily understood language.

[M79]

Interesting thread

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

Hmm. . . I guess I meant to suggest that these two men were leading their delegations, not composing the entire delegation. I should clarify this and include more names.



I picked Stephens because he actually did represent the Confederacy at the closest thing resembling peace talks that the two sides ever had (though Davis and known they would fail) and because Davis now would have much of his attention focused on the post-war politics of an independence Confederacy. Breckinridge was chosen because he and Davis were on very good terms and for his pre-war political prominence (especially in his home state of Kentucky).

And the POD has Benjamin in Europe.



Quite so. Dix was picked mostly because he had worked with the Confederates on prisoner exchanges.



You're right. Will do.



It's basically the standard language of "most favored nation" trade treaties from the time.



Nothing too big. Just arranging for each side to have consulates and agents in one another's commercial centers. Again, pretty standard in trade treaties for the time.



I think people are inflating the importance of this article (which comes from the trade treaty Jefferson negotiated with Prussia in the 1780s). It basically means that if ships or other property is lost or stolen in the ports or offshore waters of the other, the local authorities should help them recover it just as if they were citizens of the resident nation. But I'll try to find different language to clarify what it means in a more easily understood language.

MFN would be rejected by the North in any case. MFN favors the South heavily. In fact the entire treaty favors the South heavily so why would the Union agree to it? What is in this treaty for them?

[The Sandman]

Perhaps you should tell us the POD, Anaxagoras? Playing coy about it for no good reason is both annoying and counterproductive, especially when you post something as fundamentally improbable as the CSA getting this treaty in 1865 with a POD after the start of the war.

[Reggie Bartlett]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

TN is a done deal. It is completely under Union control. The CSA is never getting TN back because it has no way of retaking it. The Indian Territory is more questionable. As far as the Unionist enclaves it is quite possible if the Union Army is sitting on them. Seeing where they are positioned it looks quite likely. In war possession is 99/100th of the law!

If the POD is 1861, TN is almost completely under CS control. If the POD is 1862 or 1863, over half of TN is still under CS control.

Anytime before 1864, Tennessee is a done deal, for the CSA.

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

MFN would be rejected by the North in any case. MFN favors the South heavily.

It favors both, obviously.

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

In fact the entire treaty favors the South heavily so why would the Union agree to it? What is in this treaty for them?

Peace. And to a war-weary and exhausted people, that's a very valuable thing.

But I am considering all that has been said and editing the treaty in certain ways. I agree with you that it favors the South too much.

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by The Sandman

Perhaps you should tell us the POD, Anaxagoras? Playing coy about it for no good reason is both annoying and counterproductive, especially when you post something as fundamentally improbable as the CSA getting this treaty in 1865 with a POD after the start of the war.

My concern is that by stating the specific POD is that I will turn the entire thread into a discussion about whether or not the specific POD is plausible and by so doing will hinder discussion about the document itself, which is the purpose for which I created the thread.

Generally, though, assume the Confederacy did considerably better militarily, which leads to a collapse of Union morale and political will, the election of a Peace Democrat in 1864 (not Vallandigham) and that the European powers are about to recognize the Confederacy and perhaps lift the blockade by force.

I apologize if my not earlier stating the specific POD was annoying, but I do hope that discussion will not now be entirely derailed by a frantic denouncement of the POD. Of course, that is exactly what I expect to happen.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

And the POD has Benjamin in Europe.

Hmm. How about
POD:
March 1863: Judah Benjamin's daughter Ninette saves the life of Napoleon III in an assassination attempt by an Abolitionist that kills both her mother Natalie and Empress Euginie.

September 1863: Judah travels to France to see if his daughter's growing relationship with the French Emperor would make him more likely to support the Confederacy.

October 1863: On the way back from Paris, Judah meets with Queen Victoria and in the most amazing coincidence in history, saves Queen Victoria from an assassination attempt by an Abolitionist.

January 1864: After Judah converts from Judaism to Church of England, Queen Victoria marries Judah and Ninette marries the French Emperor and on their respective Honeymoons convince both Sovereigns to support the Confederate cause...

[Anaxagoras]

Current version of the treaty, with changes still to be made:

--------------------------

TREATY OF PEACE AND AMITY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA

The United States of America and the Confederate States of America, moved by a mutual and sincere desire to see the calamity of war and the unnecessary effusion of blood and treasure ended, and to establish peace on the firm foundations of friendship and mutual respect, have appointed for that purpose respective plenipotentiaries. The President of the United States has appointed Joel Parker, Governor of the State of New Jersey, and John Dix, Major General of the United States Army, and the President of the Confederate States has appointed Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States, and John Breckinridge, Major General of the Confederate Army, who, after a reciprocal communication of their respective full powers, have arranged, agreed upon, and signed the following Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America.

Article I
There shall be a firm and universal peace between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America, and between their respective citizens, without any exception of places and persons.

Article II
The United States recognizes the complete independence of the Confederate States, fully recognizes the legitimacy of the Confederate government, and acknowledges that any and all political or legal authority the United States once held over the territory now encompassed by the Confederate States is totally dissolved.

Article III
Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the military forces of the United States shall begin to withdraw from all territory of the Confederate States currently under their occupation, with such withdrawal to be completed in as expedient a manner as practical, but within two months in any event. Care shall be taken to avoid unnecessary disruptions to civilians and there shall be no unnecessary destruction of property during this time. The Confederate government, and its military forces, shall use all means within its power to assist the withdrawing United States forces.

Article IV
Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States and the Confederate States shall transmit orders to their respective naval vessels, wherever they might be, to immediately cease all hostile action against the other party. Furthermore, immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States shall lift the naval blockade imposed upon the Confederate States on April 19, 1861.

Article V
All prisoners taken by either side, on land or sea, shall be restored as soon as practical after the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty.

Article VI
The territory of the Confederate States of American consists of the following states: Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas, as well as other states which may join as a result of plebiscites as specified in Article OOO. All fortifications and other facilities previously belonging to the United States government within the confines of those states shall devolve to the Confederacy.

Article VII
The Confederate States forever abandons any and all territorial claims to the State of Maryland, the State of West Virginia, the State of Missouri, the Territory of New Mexico, the Indian Territory, and any portions thereof.

Article VIII
Plebiscites shall be held in the states of Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Louisiana to enable the citizens of the said states to decide for themselves whether their states shall remain within the United States or shall join the Confederate States. Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States and the Confederates States shall each appoint, for each state, five commissioners to create a ten-person commission with authority to organize and oversee the plebiscite within their state and to ensure that it be free and fair. The plebiscites shall be held within one year of the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty.

Article IX
Fairfax County, Virginia, and Loudoun County, Virginia, are ceded to the United States and shall be incorporated into the District of Columbia.

Article X
Each party reserves to itself the right to fortify whatever point within its territory it may judge proper so to fortify for its security.

Article XI
Neither the United States or the Confederates States, nor any citizen thereof, shall be bound in any way or manner for any loss of property which may have regrettably taken place during the period of military hostility between the two nations. For the purposes of this treaty, “property” shall be held to include persons held to servitude under the laws of the Confederate States.

Article XII
When traveling into the United States, citizens of the Confederate States shall not be permitted to bring persons held to servitude under the laws of the Confederate States with them.

Article XIII
The vessels and citizens of the United States shall, in all time, have free, unhindered and uninterrupted use of the Mississippi River for means of transportation, armed vessels of a military nature alone excepted.

Article XIV
The citizens of the United States and the Confederate States shall have the freedom to trade in the territory of the other nation and shall pay within the other nation no other or greater duties, charges or fees whatsoever than the most favored nations are or shall be obliged to pay; and they shall enjoy all the rights, privileges and exemptions in navigation and commerce, which the most favored nation does or shall enjoy; submitting themselves, nevertheless to the laws and usages there established, and to which are submitted the citizens and subjects of the most favored nations.

Article XV
To facilitate commerce and friendly relations, the two nations grant to each other the liberty of having in the ports or inland centers of commerce of the other consuls, vice-consuls, agents & commissaries of their own appointment, whose functions shall be regulated by particular agreement whenever either party shall choose to make such appointment; but if any such consuls shall exercise commerce, they shall be submitted to the same laws and usages to which the private individuals of their nation are submitted in the same place.

Article XVI
Each nation shall endeavor, by all the means in their power, to protect and defend all vessels and other effects belonging to the citizens of the other nation, which shall be within the extent of their jurisdiction, by sea or by land, and shall use all their efforts to recover and cause to be restored to their right owners, their vessels and effects which shall be taken from them within the extent of their said jurisdiction.

Article XVII
If private citizens of either nation, acting under proper law, shall erect monuments or memorials to their respective war dead on battlefields in the territory of the other nation, the local authorities shall protect said monuments and memorials and treat acts of vandalism directed towards them as a serious criminal offense.

Article XVIII
Both nations agree that creditors on either side shall face no legal impediment to the full recovery of any legitimate debts they may have accrued before the separation of the United States and Confederate States.

Article XIX
If unhappily any disagreement should hereafter arise between the United States and the Confederate States, whether with respect to the stipulations of this treaty or for any other reason, the two nations honestly pledge to one another that they will endeavor in the most sincere manner to settle the difficulties so arising and to preserve the state of peace and friendship in which the two countries are now placing themselves, using, for this purpose, mutual representations and pacific negotiations. And if, by these means, they should not be enabled to come to an agreement, a resort shall not, on this account, be had to reprisals, aggression, or hostility of any kind, by the one nation against the other, until the government of that which deems itself aggrieved shall have maturely considered, in the spirit of peace and friendship, whether it would not be better that such difference should be settled by the arbitration of commissioners appointed on each side, or by that of a friendly nation. And should such course be proposed by either party, it shall be acceded to by the other, unless deemed by it altogether incompatible with the nature of the difference, or the circumstances of the case.

Article XX
If unhappily war should ever again arise between the two nations, the merchants of either nation then residing in the other shall be allowed to remain six months to collect their debts and settle their affairs, and may depart freely, carrying off all their effects, without molestation or hindrance.

CONCLUDED ONBOARD THE RIVER QUEEN ANCHORED IN HAMPTON ROADS AUGUST 2, 1865, RATIFIED BY THE UNITED STATES ON OCTOBER 1, 1865 AND THE CONFEDERATE STATES ON OCTOBER 6, 1865, RATIFICATIONS EXCHANGED AT CITY POINT, VIRGINIA, ON NOVEMBER 1, 1865.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

It favors both, obviously.

No, it doesn't. The South has nothing the North really needs. The only thing the South has is cotton and tobbacco. Niether are that important economically. The North has everything the South needs. Metals, food, fuel, all manufactured goods, drugs etc. Free trade strengthens the South more than the North. Why is the North agreeing to help its chief rival?

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

No, it doesn't. The South has nothing the North really needs. The only thing the South has is cotton and tobbacco. Niether are that important economically. The North has everything the South needs. Metals, food, fuel, all manufactured goods, drugs etc. Free trade strengthens the South more than the North. Why is the North agreeing to help its chief rival?

The industrialists and bankers of the North will want to reestablish the mutually beneficial economic relationships that existed with the South before the war. MFN status between the two countries is the best way to do this. Besides, the South has much more than cotton and tobacco.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

Article IX
Fairfax County, Virginia, and Loudoun County, Virginia, are ceded to the United States and shall be incorporated into the District of Columbia.

Why is this useful to the union and why would they be incorporated into DC? In the 1860s, there was a four-way meeting point (like UT/CO/NM/AZ) at the westernmost point of DC. Fairfax on the west side of the river outside the original 10 mile square only touched DC at that point (and Loudoun is farther NW). Alexandria County at that point was all of Virginia inside the original 10 miles square. (Most of Alexandria county including that area is now part of Arlington County.)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:18...ton_dc1894.jpg . Fairfax is the unlabeled portion NW of Alexandria on the Virginia side.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

Current version of the treaty, with changes still to be made:

--------------------------

TREATY OF PEACE AND AMITY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA

The United States of America and the Confederate States of America, moved by a mutual and sincere desire to see the calamity of war and the unnecessary effusion of blood and treasure ended, and to establish peace on the firm foundations of friendship and mutual respect, have appointed for that purpose respective plenipotentiaries. The President of the United States has appointed Joel Parker, Governor of the State of New Jersey, and John Dix, Major General of the United States Army, and the President of the Confederate States has appointed Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States, and John Breckinridge, Major General of the Confederate Army, who, after a reciprocal communication of their respective full powers, have arranged, agreed upon, and signed the following Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America.

Article I
There shall be a firm and universal peace between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America, and between their respective citizens, without any exception of places and persons.

Article II
The United States recognizes the complete independence of the Confederate States, fully recognizes the legitimacy of the Confederate government, and acknowledges that any and all political or legal authority the United States once held over the territory now encompassed by the Confederate States is totally dissolved.

Article III
Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the military forces of the United States shall begin to withdraw from all territory of the Confederate States currently under their occupation, with such withdrawal to be completed in as expedient a manner as practical, but within two months in any event. Care shall be taken to avoid unnecessary disruptions to civilians and there shall be no unnecessary destruction of property during this time. The Confederate government, and its military forces, shall use all means within its power to assist the withdrawing United States forces.

Article IV
Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States and the Confederate States shall transmit orders to their respective naval vessels, wherever they might be, to immediately cease all hostile action against the other party. Furthermore, immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States shall lift the naval blockade imposed upon the Confederate States on April 19, 1861.

Article V
All prisoners taken by either side, on land or sea, shall be restored as soon as practical after the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty.

Article VI
The territory of the Confederate States of American consists of the following states: Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Texas, as well as other states which may join as a result of plebiscites as specified in Article OOO. All fortifications and other facilities previously belonging to the United States government within the confines of those states shall devolve to the Confederacy.

Article VII
The Confederate States forever abandons any and all territorial claims to the State of Maryland, the State of West Virginia, the State of Missouri, the Territory of New Mexico, the Indian Territory, and any portions thereof.

Article VIII
Plebiscites shall be held in the states of Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Louisiana to enable the citizens of the said states to decide for themselves whether their states shall remain within the United States or shall join the Confederate States. Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States and the Confederates States shall each appoint, for each state, five commissioners to create a ten-person commission with authority to organize and oversee the plebiscite within their state and to ensure that it be free and fair. The plebiscites shall be held within one year of the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty.

Article IX
Fairfax County, Virginia, and Loudoun County, Virginia, are ceded to the United States and shall be incorporated into the District of Columbia.

Article X
Each party reserves to itself the right to fortify whatever point within its territory it may judge proper so to fortify for its security.

Article XI
Neither the United States or the Confederates States, nor any citizen thereof, shall be bound in any way or manner for any loss of property which may have regrettably taken place during the period of military hostility between the two nations. For the purposes of this treaty, “property” shall be held to include persons held to servitude under the laws of the Confederate States.

Article XII
When traveling into the United States, citizens of the Confederate States shall not be permitted to bring persons held to servitude under the laws of the Confederate States with them.

Article XIII
The vessels and citizens of the United States shall, in all time, have free, unhindered and uninterrupted use of the Mississippi River for means of transportation, armed vessels of a military nature alone excepted.

Article XIV
The citizens of the United States and the Confederate States shall have the freedom to trade in the territory of the other nation and shall pay within the other nation no other or greater duties, charges or fees whatsoever than the most favored nations are or shall be obliged to pay; and they shall enjoy all the rights, privileges and exemptions in navigation and commerce, which the most favored nation does or shall enjoy; submitting themselves, nevertheless to the laws and usages there established, and to which are submitted the citizens and subjects of the most favored nations.

Article XV
To facilitate commerce and friendly relations, the two nations grant to each other the liberty of having in the ports or inland centers of commerce of the other consuls, vice-consuls, agents & commissaries of their own appointment, whose functions shall be regulated by particular agreement whenever either party shall choose to make such appointment; but if any such consuls shall exercise commerce, they shall be submitted to the same laws and usages to which the private individuals of their nation are submitted in the same place.

Article XVI
Each nation shall endeavor, by all the means in their power, to protect and defend all vessels and other effects belonging to the citizens of the other nation, which shall be within the extent of their jurisdiction, by sea or by land, and shall use all their efforts to recover and cause to be restored to their right owners, their vessels and effects which shall be taken from them within the extent of their said jurisdiction.

Article XVII
If private citizens of either nation, acting under proper law, shall erect monuments or memorials to their respective war dead on battlefields in the territory of the other nation, the local authorities shall protect said monuments and memorials and treat acts of vandalism directed towards them as a serious criminal offense.

Article XVIII
Both nations agree that creditors on either side shall face no legal impediment to the full recovery of any legitimate debts they may have accrued before the separation of the United States and Confederate States.

Article XIX
If unhappily any disagreement should hereafter arise between the United States and the Confederate States, whether with respect to the stipulations of this treaty or for any other reason, the two nations honestly pledge to one another that they will endeavor in the most sincere manner to settle the difficulties so arising and to preserve the state of peace and friendship in which the two countries are now placing themselves, using, for this purpose, mutual representations and pacific negotiations. And if, by these means, they should not be enabled to come to an agreement, a resort shall not, on this account, be had to reprisals, aggression, or hostility of any kind, by the one nation against the other, until the government of that which deems itself aggrieved shall have maturely considered, in the spirit of peace and friendship, whether it would not be better that such difference should be settled by the arbitration of commissioners appointed on each side, or by that of a friendly nation. And should such course be proposed by either party, it shall be acceded to by the other, unless deemed by it altogether incompatible with the nature of the difference, or the circumstances of the case.

Article XX
If unhappily war should ever again arise between the two nations, the merchants of either nation then residing in the other shall be allowed to remain six months to collect their debts and settle their affairs, and may depart freely, carrying off all their effects, without molestation or hindrance.

CONCLUDED ONBOARD THE RIVER QUEEN ANCHORED IN HAMPTON ROADS AUGUST 2, 1865, RATIFIED BY THE UNITED STATES ON OCTOBER 1, 1865 AND THE CONFEDERATE STATES ON OCTOBER 6, 1865, RATIFICATIONS EXCHANGED AT CITY POINT, VIRGINIA, ON NOVEMBER 1, 1865.

Better, but the US would never allow a plebesite in KY and probably not TN either. Both are firmly under Union control so the US would feel no need to have one. There would be nothing about mounuments as neither side would want the expense of having to protect them. There are too many Northerners who would hate Southerners with a passion and vice versa for any government to agree to protect them. It would be a huge expense. MFN is extremely unlikely as it massively favors the South.

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by naraht

Why is this useful to the union and why would they be incorporated into DC?

To allow Washington City to be defensible. And because the Federal government might not entirely trust the government of the State of Maryland.

Originally Posted by naraht

In the 1860s, there was a four-way meeting point (like UT/CO/NM/AZ) at the westernmost point of DC. Fairfax on the west side of the river outside the original 10 mile square only touched DC at that point (and Loudoun is farther NW). Alexandria County at that point was all of Virginia inside the original 10 miles square. (Most of Alexandria county including that area is now part of Arlington County.)

The retrocession of the DC territory on the Virginia side of the Potomac to Virginia has always confused me a bit. That bit of territory should be included in the wording of the article.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

The industrialists and bankers of the North will want to reestablish the mutually beneficial economic relationships that existed with the South before the war. MFN status between the two countries is the best way to do this. Besides, the South has much more than cotton and tobacco.

While everyone else, particularly the very numerous US Veterans would not. A senator who votes for a treaty that rewards the South with MFN status is one that is going to lose a ton of state legistlature votes the next election when irate voters will want to know why their senator is helping the South. The South had virtually nothing but cotton and tobbacco that had any real value in 1860.

[AStanley]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

Article VIII
Plebiscites shall be held in the states of Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Louisiana to enable the citizens of the said states to decide for themselves whether their states shall remain within the United States or shall join the Confederate States. Immediately upon the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty, the United States and the Confederates States shall each appoint, for each state, five commissioners to create a ten-person commission with authority to organize and oversee the plebiscite within their state and to ensure that it be free and fair. The plebiscites shall be held within one year of the exchange of mutual ratifications of this treaty.

I don't think Kentucky is getting a Plebiscite.

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

Better, but the US would never allow a plebesite in KY and probably not TN either. Both are firmly under Union control so the US would feel no need to have one.

They could if the people were desperately clamoring for peace, there was clearly no longer any possibility of subduing the Confederacy and the European powers were beginning to growl. Essentially, we have reached a point where any politician who does not bring an end to the fighting is going to get thrown out of office and replaced by someone who is.

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

There would be nothing about mounuments as neither side would want the expense of having to protect them. There are too many Northerners who would hate Southerners with a passion and vice versa for any government to agree to protect them. It would be a huge expense.

This is a very minor article that I doubt would be at all controversial. And I don't see how it could possibly be defined as a "huge" expense.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

This is a very minor article that I doubt would be at all controversial. And I don't see how it could possibly be defined as a "huge" expense.

I agree with this. It's not saying there will be monuments, and I wouldn't be surprised if some government or other only nominally keeps this article. But, it's in there, and people can feel good about the words.