Possible Airship President Redux

Eckener · May 4, 2012

So, with my three month break now beginning, I'm giving serious consideration to redoing my Airship President TLs (President and Legacy). I was wanting to through the idea out there, see if there was any interest, and possibly to get some feedback on some ideas that I'm kicking around for a potential rewrite.

Things I'm considering changing:
- Return of the Kaiser. In the original, I have the Hohenzollern monarchy restored in Germany in 1939. I'm considering nixing this and leaving Germany as a stable republic. This will have effects on Russia, who only saw a restoration of the Czar because of Germany's influence.
- Russia. While I do see an Eastern European war with Germany and the Soviet Union sometime in the 1950s remaining, I didn't really like the outcome. After the war and the eventual fall of the Soviet Union, Russia I think should be unified.
- Pacific War with Japan. I felt I did this pretty vaguely, and that it could definitely use a rewrite and more detail and realism (and I'd probably need help with this).
- Airship development. I feel that this is something that could be expanded upon, and possibly go in new directions, seeing different technological advancements being used in the airship liners.

Things I think I'd like to keep (but open to suggestion):
- American political development. I really liked having the Socialists come to power in the USA and the end of the two-party system. Might actually want to expand upon this, and see a true multi-party system emerge...not sure if that's possible.
- cultural development. What stuff I did I'd like to keep pretty intact, and maybe expand and tweak here and there.

There are plenty of other stuff I'd be willing to change or add. Just feel that I'd like to rewrite things and improve the story. I really feel that the last...20-30 years of the TL could definitely use an overhaul and I could see that part changing dramatically.

So...what does everyone think?

historybuff · May 4, 2012

It'll be interesting, maybe I can give you some ideas on some politicians I would've liked to see in power.

Eckener · May 4, 2012

historybuff said:
It'll be interesting, maybe I can give you some ideas on some politicians I would've liked to see in power.

Politicians in the USA or in Germany? Or elsewhere?

glenn67 · May 4, 2012

Eckener said:
Things I think I'd like to keep (but open to suggestion):
- American political development. I really liked having the Socialists come to power in the USA and the end of the two-party system. Might actually want to expand upon this, and see a true multi-party system emerge...not sure if that's possible.

With Hitler never coming to power and Europe at peace going into 1940 resulting in only a two-term Presidency for FDR, you had the Liberty Party as the successor to the Democrats in the late 1970s and going out of business after the 1996 Presidential election. And the Republican Party emerged as a post-New Deal center-right party that was never taken over by the religious right.

If you plan to write a take 2, I suggest that the Democrats and Republicans emerge as center-left and center-right parties while a conservative (or libertarian) third party emerges as a regional party. Maybe introduce the Green Party as the most leftist party and the Social Democrats as less radical than the Greens.

historybuff · May 4, 2012

USA, Germany, and elseware.
For the US, ahav the Republicans be more bipartison, no religious right takeover.
Maybe Kosygin could be Soviet or Russian leader at some point.

Eckener · May 4, 2012

glenn67 said:
With Hitler never coming to power and Europe at peace going into 1940 resulting in only a two-term Presidency for FDR, you had the Liberty Party as the successor to the Democrats in the late 1970s and going out of business after the 1996 Presidential election. And the Republican Party emerged as a post-New Deal center-right party that was never taken over by the religious right.

If you plan to write a take 2, I suggest that the Democrats and Republicans emerge as center-left and center-right parties while a conservative (or libertarian) third party emerges as a regional party. Maybe introduce the Green Party as the most leftist party and the Social Democrats as less radical than the Greens.

I definitely like this idea. The collapse of the Dems in the original version (OV) didn't really feel right the more I think about it. And though having the socîalist party revive was cool, not the most believable. This is definitely something to look into.

historybuff said:
USA, Germany, and elseware.
For the US, ahav the Republicans be more bipartison, no religious right takeover.
Maybe Kosygin could be Soviet or Russian leader at some point.

I'm definitely all ears for suggestions.
I'm hoping to get to a multi-party system, which would force all the parties to have to be more willing to work with those across the aisles.

Eckener · May 4, 2012

Two other things that I'm not sure I want to keep or change:
-Facist Britain: this was honestly done just for fun, but I kinda liked how it worked out overall. However, I'm not crazy about all the Britiah-led warfare in the middle east over oil in the 1970s and 1980s, so if I still have Britain go facist, I don't think I'll keep the middle east conflicts. At least not in their original form.

-Zeppelin-Goodyear International (ZGI): at some point in the 40s or 50s, the Zeppelin and Goodyear airship companies merge into ZGI. They keep, for the most part, a monopoly on the industry for decades, until some disAffected designers leave ZGI and start a new company out in California. I'm thinking about keeping the two companies separate, to allow for real competition in design between the two, as part of an effort to see airship designs adopt new concepts and technologies earlier than in the OV.

edvader · May 5, 2012

Hmm, the two airship companies functioning as separate entities sounds promising.BTW, with Eckener as President of Germany in 1932 does this means the US will sell helium to Germany?Maybe I missed something but did the sale of helium occur?

Eckener · May 5, 2012

edvader said:
Hmm, the two airship companies functioning as separate entities sounds promising.BTW, with Eckener as President of Germany in 1932 does this means the US will sell helium to Germany?Maybe I missed something but did the sale of helium occur?

Yes it does. Over the 1930s, with continued cooperation between Germany and the United States, the helium sale does indeed occur.

And yes I'm hoping that keeping the companies separate, in addition to the British company, we will see an increase in innovation from increased (mostly friendly) competition.

historybuff · May 5, 2012

Not sure if the USSR shoud fall, or if the New Union Treaty should work, but the Russian empire thing, I don't know about that.
How about if Kosygin becomes Sovieet leader, his reforms start helping the Soviet economic thing, and Fyodor Kulakov is the Premier?

Eckener · May 5, 2012

historybuff said:
Not sure if the USSR shoud fall, or if the New Union Treaty should work, but the Russian empire thing, I don't know about that.
How about if Kosygin becomes Sovieet leader, his reforms start helping the Soviet economic thing, and Fyodor Kulakov is the Premier?

I'll have to look them up, because I really don't know anything about them. I know basics on Soviet history, but it's been awhile. Possibly the USSR looses the 1950s war with Germany, then a reformist takes charge and turns the country around?

historybuff · May 5, 2012

Works for me.
Here's some ideas for American politicians. Chris Mathews, Rachel Maddow, John Dean, Jack Matlock.

Eckener · May 5, 2012

historybuff said:
Works for me.
Here's some ideas for American politicians. Chris Mathews, Rachel Maddow, John Dean, Jack Matlock.

Sweet. I'll check them out as well. The only person in US politics I'm set on keeping is having Will Rodgers become president like in the OV.

Eckener · May 5, 2012

So I've looked over the names you gave. I'm intrigued about what ideas you have for them. Also looked over Kosygin as well. And I'm definitely interested, and if I keep the USSR intact, he could amerge as the post-War leader.

historybuff · May 5, 2012

No fascist Britain, then who could be the main enemy? I'm thinking a military junta in some country.

Eckener · May 5, 2012

historybuff said:
No fascist Britain, then who could be the main enemy? I'm thinking a military junta in some country.

I'm perfectly fine with keeping britain facist. Just didn't want to have all the stuff in the middle east go down like I had it go originally.

historybuff · May 5, 2012

I see. For Iran, how about the Shah resigns, and a colition government is set up, with a moderate ayatollah as part of it.
Check out the book by Jeff GreenfeieldThen Everything Changed for info from where I got that idea from.

Eckener · May 7, 2012

historybuff said:
I see. For Iran, how about the Shah resigns, and a colition government is set up, with a moderate ayatollah as part of it.
Check out the book by Jeff GreenfeieldThen Everything Changed for info from where I got that idea from.

So keep Iran from going radical. Thats a possibility.

So some other things that I'm thinking about:
- Racial equality movement. I still think it would be delayed to a point, but maybe not as long. Also not sure that the whole "Alabama war" should be kept.

- style do the TL. Did everyone like the "articles from ITTL newspapers and books? Thought about possible putting in some first person perspective in the rewrite, but haven't. Are up my mind yet

Utgard96 · May 8, 2012

Eckener said:
So, with my three month break now beginning, I'm giving serious consideration to redoing my Airship President TLs (President and Legacy). I was wanting to through the idea out there, see if there was any interest, and possibly to get some feedback on some ideas that I'm kicking around for a potential rewrite.

(snip)

So...what does everyone think?

I like the idea. It seems everyone (including myself) is reduxing these days; I'm not sure why, but I like it. Good luck.

Responding to each of your raised points:

Eckener said:
- Return of the Kaiser. In the original, I have the Hohenzollern monarchy restored in Germany in 1939. I'm considering nixing this and leaving Germany as a stable republic. This will have effects on Russia, who only saw a restoration of the Czar because of Germany's influence.

I'm not certain about that. I liked that the Kaiser got put back on, and a general revival of monarchies in Europe seems interesting to me. Then there is the fact that the Weimar Republic was one big muddle, and I think most Germans would want to get back to the peace and stability that existed under the Empire.

Eckener said:
- Russia. While I do see an Eastern European war with Germany and the Soviet Union sometime in the 1950s remaining, I didn't really like the outcome. After the war and the eventual fall of the Soviet Union, Russia I think should be unified.

While I thought the Russian split was entertaining, I agree that the majority of Russians would probably want a unified country. It's just too bad that we can't have WWII happen in the same way as in the original.

Eckener said:
- Pacific War with Japan. I felt I did this pretty vaguely, and that it could definitely use a rewrite and more detail and realism (and I'd probably need help with this).

I can't remember how much you wrote about it (I only remember when Hull's plane went missing).

Eckener said:
- Airship development. I feel that this is something that could be expanded upon, and possibly go in new directions, seeing different technological advancements being used in the airship liners.

Hmm, yes it might. For your delectation, here's the Goodyear president's book WHY? has America no Rigid Airships, electronically transcribed and with scanned pictures. A recent Google find of mine.

Eckener said:
- American political development. I really liked having the Socialists come to power in the USA and the end of the two-party system. Might actually want to expand upon this, and see a true multi-party system emerge...not sure if that's possible.

Well, the current FPTP system makes it nigh-impossible for third parties to exist, since whoever is in power can gerrymander them out of existence. However, I could see the Socialists striving for reforms to the electoral system, since their own cause would be aided by it. MMP, in its New Zealander incarnation, could work; I remember reading somewhere that Pennsylvania used to elect three or four of its congressmen on a statewide basis, and from there the step to MMP isn't a long one.

Eckener said:
- cultural development. What stuff I did I'd like to keep pretty intact, and maybe expand and tweak here and there.

Yeah, it was very alternate, and very intriguing. Alternate culture, IMO, is one of those things that, when adequately covered, bring a TL to new levels.

Eckener said:
-Facist Britain: this was honestly done just for fun, but I kinda liked how it worked out overall. However, I'm not crazy about all the British-led warfare in the middle east over oil in the 1970s and 1980s, so if I still have Britain go facist, I don't think I'll keep the middle east conflicts. At least not in their original form.

I also liked fascist Britain, since it's one of those things we rarely see, except in insane Nazi victory scenarios. Did you ever read A Greater Britain? I think EdT has some interesting ideas about what Mosley would do if placed in power of Britain (although that has him staying in Labour). As for the middle eastern wars, I kind of liked the Iran War, although I feel like it went on for way too long.

Eckener said:
-Zeppelin-Goodyear International (ZGI): at some point in the 40s or 50s, the Zeppelin and Goodyear airship companies merge into ZGI. They keep, for the most part, a monopoly on the industry for decades, until some disaffected designers leave ZGI and start a new company out in California. I'm thinking about keeping the two companies separate, to allow for real competition in design between the two, as part of an effort to see airship designs adopt new concepts and technologies earlier than in the OV.

I agree that monopoly industry is never fun, as much as I hate capitalist competition. Have you ever thought about the possibility of having cruise airships of some sort? I think it could be a real hit; at least when prices have declined enough.

Eckener said:
So keep Iran from going radical. That's a possibility.

Eckener said:
- Racial equality movement. I still think it would be delayed to a point, but maybe not as long. Also not sure that the whole "Alabama war" should be kept.

While I'm not sure that Wallace would go to such insane lengths, I like the bloodier civil rights movement ITTL. Also, yeah, these things should probably happen in the mid-to-late '60s.

Eckener said:
- style do the TL. Did everyone like the "articles from ITTL newspapers and books? Thought about possible putting in some first person perspective in the rewrite, but haven't. Are up my mind yet

Yeah, I liked the original style. However, I also agree that actual narrative sections could add a new dimension to the TL.

Also, if you'd like some maps for the new version, feel free to ask!

historybuff · May 8, 2012

I like the first person idea, and I liked the articles too.