Could DeValera have declared war on Germany

Derek Jackson · May 2, 2012

Suppose the Irish government got accurate intelligence on the impossibility of Sealion.

Imagine Devalera had asked the Dail to hand an ultimatum to Germany stating that if they dropped any more bombs on 'the national territory' (ie including the North) Eire would declare war.

Could he have carried that?

Garrison · May 2, 2012

Derek Jackson said:
Suppose the Irish government got accurate intelligence on the impossibility of Sealion.

Imagine Devalera had asked the Dail to hand an ultimatum to Germany stating that if they dropped any more bombs on 'the national territory' (ie including the North) Eire would declare war.

Could he have carried that?

You're kidding right? A country that punished men who 'deserted' the Irish Army to fight with the British against the Germans? See this BBC article:
Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

Falkenburg · May 2, 2012

Dev almost certainly couldn't have pulled it off.

Ireland had its own Facists. And no love for the British (obviously).
Couple that with a tendency to political violence and the risks to the State would have been perceived as too great.

Kill Dev/Save Collins and the Civil War might give birth to a more pragmatic, less confessional/delusional secular State that might have fostered better relations with Britain.

THAT State might (just might) have had the strength to carry a Declaration of War.

Dev? Not a chance.

Falkenburg

Maponus · May 2, 2012

Falkenburg said:
Dev almost certainly couldn't have pulled it off.

Ireland had its own Facists. And no love for the British (obviously).
Couple that with a tendency to political violence and the risks to the State would have been perceived as too great.

Kill Dev/Save Collins and the Civil War might give birth to a more pragmatic, less confessional/delusional secular State that might have fostered better relations with Britain.

Weren't the Blueshirts Pro-Treaty and hadn't they vanished by the time the war started?

The Red · May 2, 2012

For this to have any chance of happening you need to have Dev out of the way, and what could be more poetic than having the Germans kill him? They almost killed the President in OTL when they bombed his home, maybe have a twist of fate lead to DeValera and the President have dinner there that night instead of the building being unoccupied, incinerating them both, the resulting outrage leads to an Irish DoW.

corditeman · May 2, 2012

Falkenburg and The Red have it...

...Eire needed Collins and Erskine Childers. In OTL they had neither. Terrible.

Enigmajones · May 2, 2012

De Valera isn't declaring war on Germany. Period. As far as Dev was concerned, a German occupation of Great Britain was favorable to Great Britain by itself.

Garrison · May 2, 2012

Enigmajones said:
De Valera isn't declaring war on Germany. Period. As far as Dev was concerned, a German occupation of Great Britain was favorable to Great Britain by itself.

As well as the appalling treatment of Irish soldiers who chose to fight with the British there's the small matter of delivering condolences to the German legation after Hitler's death. He may not have been pro-Nazi but De Valera would have been delighted to see Britain reduced to ruins by Germany.

Enigmajones · May 2, 2012

Garrison said:
As well as the appalling treatment of Irish soldiers who chose to fight with the British there's the small matter of delivering condolences to the German legation after Hitler's death. He may not have been pro-Nazi but De Valera would have been delighted to see Britain reduced to ruins by Germany.

Im Pro Dev and I don't think you can really expect anyone in early Republican Ireland to treat the situation objectively. The nation had just wretched itself from British control and here were soldiers joining the British army. It wasn't their fight. The best you could have hoped for was complete ambivalence, it wasn't Ireland's war. They were hardly going to throw a parade for returning "British" soldiers.

And everyone always makes a fuss over the Condolences, Ireland had relations with the Third Reich, Im sure it was just a matter of state.

Kayin Dreemurr · May 2, 2012

Enigmajones said:
De Valera isn't declaring war on Germany. Period. As far as Dev was concerned, a German occupation of Great Britain was favorable to Great Britain by itself.

Now there's a thought, is there any way to get Ireland into the Axis? And what effects could this have?

Ulster · May 2, 2012

Enigmajones said:
Im Pro Dev and I don't think you can really expect anyone in early Republican Ireland to treat the situation objectively. The nation had just wretched itself from British control and here were soldiers joining the British army. It wasn't their fight. The best you could have hoped for was complete ambivalence, it wasn't Ireland's war. They were hardly going to throw a parade for returning "British" soldiers.

And everyone always makes a fuss over the Condolences, Ireland had relations with the Third Reich, Im sure it was just a matter of state.

No one was expecting a parade. However no one can do anything but condemn the way the Irish state took away the ability of many Irishmen to earn a liveliood or support their families, or the way the orphans of dead soldiers were specifically marked with an SS on their records to ensure that they were treated appropriately

sparky42 · May 2, 2012

Ulster said:
No one was expecting a parade. However no one can do anything but condemn the way the Irish state took away the ability of many Irishmen to earn a liveliood or support their families, or the way the orphans of dead soldiers were specifically marked with an SS on their records to ensure that they were treated appropriately

Your absolutely right about how they were treated, for myself that's one of the historic reasons why I hate Dev and his party. Let's face facts, Irish joining up to HM forces happens always, I wonder how much of their take home pay kept the Irish economy standing. The number of lost opportunities for the nation then was just staggering.

The Red · May 2, 2012

Enigmajones said:
And everyone always makes a fuss over the Condolences, Ireland had relations with the Third Reich, Im sure it was just a matter of state.

Which begs the question why didn't they give the same condolence to the United States when FDR died?

Grimm Reaper · May 2, 2012

Not to mention DeValera's government censors concealing that Hitler had committed suicide, along with any other aspects of the war which might be considered a moral judgment...like FDR referring to the Holocaust.

The treatment of the Irish who served in the British military is, of course, beneath contempt and it would be appropriate for apologies and financial damages to be paid even at this late date.

Enigmajones · May 2, 2012

The Red said:
Which begs the question why didn't they give the same condolence to the United States when FDR died?

Did I forget to mention that, like all Irish foreign policy at the time, it was a big middle finger to London?

Cook · May 2, 2012

Garrison said:
there's the small matter of delivering condolences to the German legation after Hitler's death.

I though that was just the Irish sense of humour; it would have been as funny as hell.

Falkenburg · May 2, 2012

Maponus said:
Weren't the Blueshirts Pro-Treaty and hadn't they vanished by the time the war started?

They were and they had (as a distinct organisation).
However the quasi-facist corporatist sentiment behind them remained and would have been a factor in political considerations.

Falkenburg

Enigmajones · May 2, 2012

Falkenburg said:
They were and they had (as a distinct organisation).
However the quasi-facist corporatist sentiment behind them remained and would have been a factor in political considerations.

Falkenburg

Yeah the Blueshirts really lost all and any influence after they separated from Fine Gael and formed the Army Corporate Association. Having them stay a prominent force in Fine Gael might be the only way. But barring some miracle that saves the other nationalist leaders, Dev is the largest political figure in Ireland and its hard to see him not get into power.

Noravea · May 2, 2012

If I recall Churchill actually offered to give Ulster to the Irish if they entered the war, to there is the Irish motivation right there to fight for the Allies.

Armored Diplomacy · May 2, 2012

Germany had already, ostensibly accidentally, bombed Irish sovereign territory, including Dublin. They also launched massive bombing raids against Northern Ireland. All the Irish Air Corps had was a minuscule force fighters and maybe some minor air defense capabilities. Barrage balloons were a big part of the air defense preparations there. They would also need to equip the small Irish Naval Service to properly handle the U-boat threat.

Even if he had wanted to, he wouldn't have, at least not until Ireland is capable of properly defending itself. The Germans would have bombed the Republic's territory with virtual impunity, and maybe lost a few planes. At the same time, a small Irish Army force would be fighting in North Africa and having almost no impact due to its size. In fact, Ireland's most important contribution would simply be drawing Luftwaffe planes and U-boats away from the big boys and onto its own territory.