Help With a Plausible Japanese WWII Victory

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Tannhäuser

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The scenario is that Japan decides that there's a better chance of the US not getting involved than there is of Japan defeating it. Therefore, Japan launches a surprise attack on Singapore and follows up with an invasion of Indonesia. It carefully skirts the Philippines and does its military and diplomatic best to avoid war with the US. New Guinea falls in 1942, Australia in 1943, and India has been fully "liberated" by 1944, in large part due to the assistance of Indian freedom fighters (I think that an initially successful invasion of India would have prompted a lot more Indians to resist, and the Japanese would have had few problems recruiting in occupied areas). The Chinese army is defeated in 1946. With only a little US material assistance, the USSR suffers even more than it did in OTL, but eventually turns things around and liberates all of Europe in 1947 or 1948.

My question is: what happens to France's colonies if the mainland goes Communist? The Vichy regime may still be in power in some areas. Would either they or the Free French have been willing to submit to a Communist government? Would they have tried to set up a French Union without France? Would they have been annexed by Britain? Would the USSR let that occur?

Japanese Victory West 2.png
 
The Japanese cannot bypass the Phillipines as they lie across the supply lines to SE Asia, even if FDR is no lover of British Imperialism America cannot afford to let the region fall into Japanese hands as the resources there will make them very hard to dislodge. Also after giving Japan an ultimatum over China America will look weak if it then fails to act against this, war with America would be almost inevitable and by not taking the Philippines the Japanese have effectively bared their throats to the Americans, they have to take out everything on the way.
 
Sorry but a Japanese invasion of Australia and 'liberation' of India is doable only if the IJN and IJA is composed by anime characters with relative mecha and super martial arts skill.
Liberation by the URSS of all Europe is also very difficult, regaining lost territories yes, but in OTL the red army strectched is supply lines to the breaking point to get in position, more is difficult (to use an euphemis) without an enemy civil war at least.
 

Garrison

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The Japanese cannot bypass the Phillipines as they lie across the supply lines to SE Asia, even if FDR is no lover of British Imperialism America cannot afford to let the region fall into Japanese hands as the resources there will make them very hard to dislodge. Also after giving Japan an ultimatum over China America will look weak if it then fails to act against this, war with America would be almost inevitable and by not taking the Philippines the Japanese have effectively bared their throats to the Americans, they have to take out everything on the way.

Exactly, the US isn't going to impose the oil embargo, which they will assuming Japan doesn't cave in over China, and then let the Japanese conquer all those territories to replace the imports. The US policy is to resist Japanese expansion for sound strategic reasons, so they are still going to go to war with Japan.
 
The Japanese cannot bypass the Phillipines as they lie across the supply lines to SE Asia, even if FDR is no lover of British Imperialism America cannot afford to let the region fall into Japanese hands as the resources there will make them very hard to dislodge. Also after giving Japan an ultimatum over China America will look weak if it then fails to act against this, war with America would be almost inevitable and by not taking the Philippines the Japanese have effectively bared their throats to the Americans, they have to take out everything on the way.

The Japanes could have bypassed the Phillipines. It seems to me the result of doing so would have been better for them than what happened OTL.

FDR's willingness to do pretty much anything against the Axis except take America to war is so impressive partly because many Americans were disinclined to follow his lead. FDR's political skills included an ability to gauge how far along into the conflict he could bring Americans at a given point in time. I don t believe he would have expected the country to go to war absent Japanes attack on US possessions/forces

In August 1941 Congress voted 203 to 202 to renew Selective Service. A country that closely divided about whether to maintain a sizable army is not a country ready to go to war against Japanese Imperialism. A New York paper ran an editorial titled "Who'll Die for Dong Dang" after Japanes troops attacked French outposts in Tonkin a few months earlier. The writer's answer was that Americans would not. Substitute "Singapore" or "Rangoon" for Dong Dang and the answer from many, many millions of Americans would also have been "not my kid".

A major buildup of US forces in the Phillipines and elsewhere in the Paciifc would have continued, increasing the ability of the US to strike hard at the Japanese. The willingness, of a Congress that came within 1 vote of again reducing the US Army to Ruritanian proportions, to go to war for Dong Dang et al on AUgst 13 1941 was just not there on Dec 6 1941
 

Garrison

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The Japanes could have bypassed the Phillipines. It seems to me the result of doing so would have been better for them than what happened OTL.

FDR's willingness to do pretty much anything against the Axis except take America to war is so impressive partly because many Americans were disinclined to follow his lead. FDR's political skills included an ability to gauge how far along into the conflict he could bring Americans at a given point in time. I don t believe he would have expected the country to go to war absent Japanes attack on US possessions/forces


Actually FDR was doing his best to provoke the Germans in the Atlantic and if there was an element arguing that the war in Europe was none of their business the same couldn't be said for the Pacific where there were significant US interests. There might be some tap dancing around an actual declaration of war but the US would do its best to thwart the Japanese and sooner or later the Japanese will do something to provide a casus belli.
 

CalBear

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The term for the Japanese successfully invading and occupying Australia AND India is PREPOSTEROUS.

The IJA/IJN simply could not supply that sort of troop concentration at that distance.
 
Actually FDR was doing his best to provoke the Germans in the Atlantic and if there was an element arguing that the war in Europe was none of their business the same couldn't be said for the Pacific where there were significant US interests. There might be some tap dancing around an actual declaration of war but the US would do its best to thwart the Japanese and sooner or later the Japanese will do something to provide a casus belli.

FDR was certainly pushing things in the Atlantic in 1941. IIRC, a U boat launched a torpedo or two at a US battleship sometime before Pearl Harbor. So the US could possibly have gone to war with Germany at a time when the only fighting in Asia/Pacific was Japan vs China, had the U boat not missed

I agree the US under FDR would have opposed the Japanese as they moved into SE Asia. Initially, though, I think US involvement would have been limited, as it then was OTL in the Atlantic. I would expect

1 More "volunteers" would have sailed to join Col Chenault's American Volunteer Group. There were light bomber crews and their planes ready to sail from the West Case OTL at the time of PH, and another fighter group was planned after that. Would FDR go so far as to eventually send heavy bombers so that American "volunteers" could attempt to bomb Japan itself? I don't think that much had yet been agreed to OTL. Or would "volunteers" ferry supplies over the Himalayas to China after the Burma Road was cut?

2 Given the US Navy was escorting merchant ships part way across the Atlantic OTL, look for similar convoys across the Pacific, to Australia, say

3 US troops might occupy French territories such as Tahiti, New Caledonia, as they did OTL go to Iceland.

4 US air and naval patrols from the Phillipines could provde intelligence as to Japanese movements

Thes kinds of moves, and , more importantly, Lend Lease, would have helped Brits, Dutch, Aussies, Chinese, but not nearly as much as the full participation of US in the war.

You are probably right that US at some point would go to war with Japan.

Its an interesting question whether delayed US entry gives Japan the chance to extend its conquests or strengthen its grip on them more than was possible in our time line
 
The term for the Japanese successfully invading and occupying Australia AND India is PREPOSTEROUS.

The IJA/IJN simply could not supply that sort of troop concentration at that distance.

Absolutely correct. Lesser goals like holding Indochina, New Guinea and Burma maybe, but not much more than that.

For the Japanese to have a better run, the POD would lie in America, not Japan. If FDR is not President in 1940 and an isolationist Democrat with some crypto-Fascist sympathies like Huey Long takes his place (yeah, I know, very low probability) US entry might be postponed. especially if the IJN avoids the Philipines,
 
The term for the Japanese successfully invading and occupying Australia AND India is PREPOSTEROUS.

The IJA/IJN simply could not supply that sort of troop concentration at that distance.


But wouldn't Japanese have gotten to Port Moresby anyway?

How much impact would Japanese planes flying from Guadalcanal have on shipping routes to Australia?

Would IJN range freely across Indian Ocean? How much does that impact the British grip on India? Or events in the Mideast?

Wouldn't Britain have sent more forces East without US fully in the war?
WHAt does that do elsewhere?

I am not at all certain the Japanese at the end are any better off, but don't they run wild longer?

It might seem, generally speaking, the longer it took to get US into action against any Axis power, the longer before that nation would be defeated.
 

CalBear

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The Japanese could NOT bypass the Philippines.

Unlike those of us dealing with the scenario the Japanese had to deal with reality.

The reality of the era was that the United States had the ability to cut off the Japanese supply lines between the entire Southern Resource Area and the Home Islands from Manila Bay and Clark Field. The U.S. HAD Guam a potential major island base that could easily be brought up to speed (and was, in fact, supposed to be so upgraded) that posed a vital threat to the Japanese League mandate island of Saipan. The United States was, in December of 1941, within weeks of completing a B-17 base on Wake. There was only one potential target for B-17s operating out of Wake, the Japanese bases in the Mandates.

The reality of the era was that, in July of 1940 the United States Congress had approved the largest peacetime naval and aircraft building program the world had ever seen. The United States did not need EIGHTEEN fleet carriers to intervene in Europe, it also did not need four Iowa and five Montana class battleships, twenty seven cruisers and 40 submarines to deal with Europe. There was only one potential enemy that the Vinson-Walsh was aimed at, and they didn't speak German. The Japanese knew that. The Japanese knew that if the waited to oppose the U.S. until the Americans decided that they were ready to fight that the U.S. would crush them like bugs.



The Japanese also knew that they were rapidly, dramatically, going broke. They had a very limited time to construct a defensible perimeter, get the essential resources needed to survive, and be ready to hold against the U.S., If they left the Philippines, Guam, Wake, American Samoa, Johnson Island, etc. in American hands they would never be able to establish a perimeter since the U.S. would hold bases at every choke point across the Central Pacific.

The reality was that the United States had entered WW I because of a telegram. Not because its forces or possessions were attacked. It entered the war because a couple cargo ships were sunk a really stupid telegram from Germany to Mexico. Japan had to figure that reality into the plan.

In planning for war you have to account for threats. Once identified you have to honor them and come up with a way to neutralize them.

The question isn't if Japan could have ignored all the threats posed by the U.S. bases and U.S. building program based on sixty years of hindsight and reading of the Presidential papers of every President since FDR, the personal papers of most significant members of Congress of the era, it is if the Japanese High Command was stupid enough to disregard ALL the threats posed by the U.S.in 1941. They were not (although they were stunningly clueless about their enemy). No military officer would have been.


The Japanes could have bypassed the Phillipines. It seems to me the result of doing so would have been better for them than what happened OTL.

FDR's willingness to do pretty much anything against the Axis except take America to war is so impressive partly because many Americans were disinclined to follow his lead. FDR's political skills included an ability to gauge how far along into the conflict he could bring Americans at a given point in time. I don t believe he would have expected the country to go to war absent Japanes attack on US possessions/forces

In August 1941 Congress voted 203 to 202 to renew Selective Service. A country that closely divided about whether to maintain a sizable army is not a country ready to go to war against Japanese Imperialism. A New York paper ran an editorial titled "Who'll Die for Dong Dang" after Japanes troops attacked French outposts in Tonkin a few months earlier. The writer's answer was that Americans would not. Substitute "Singapore" or "Rangoon" for Dong Dang and the answer from many, many millions of Americans would also have been "not my kid".

A major buildup of US forces in the Phillipines and elsewhere in the Paciifc would have continued, increasing the ability of the US to strike hard at the Japanese. The willingness, of a Congress that came within 1 vote of again reducing the US Army to Ruritanian proportions, to go to war for Dong Dang et al on AUgst 13 1941 was just not there on Dec 6 1941
 
The problem with this is for the Axis to have a chance *at all* to actually "win" the Second World War, there needs to be something of joint planning and strategy on the part of Germany and Japan. Even then it's just a chance and in the very low probability of chances at that.
 

CalBear

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Port Morsby is a far differnt issue that invading and holding Australia.

Planse flying from Guadalcanal can not cut off the U.S. supply lines to Australia. They can cut off the line to Darwin. It is 1,250 miles, one way, from Guadalcanal to Brisbane, 500 further to Sydney, and another 1,000 on top of that to Melbourne. A JAPANESE base at DARWIN wouldn't cut the Supply lines to the rest of Australia. Australia is a Continental land mass.

So the IJN starts ranging across the IO. Beyond the fact that they lack the range and unrep capacity to make that a reality, what does it achieve? NOTHING. The British change the routing of their convoys from the Raj so the hug the coast. Let the IJN constantly come into range of land based air (6,000 miles from the home islands and 3,000 from the closest drydock)and get attrited. What are they going to do, attack a U.S. convoy?

The Japanese ran wild for exactly as long as they could logistically. Pushing out an extra 3,000-5,000 miles isn't going to improve their lines of communications.

But wouldn't Japanese have gotten to Port Moresby anyway?

How much impact would Japanese planes flying from Guadalcanal have on shipping routes to Australia?

Would IJN range freely across Indian Ocean? How much does that impact the British grip on India? Or events in the Mideast?

Wouldn't Britain have sent more forces East without US fully in the war?
WHAt does that do elsewhere?

I am not at all certain the Japanese at the end are any better off, but don't they run wild longer?

It might seem, generally speaking, the longer it took to get US into action against any Axis power, the longer before that nation would be defeated.
 
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So the Japanese don't attack America, just the Europeans? All America has to do is start sending shiploads of supplies to European colonies. The Japanese will either have to let the American ships through, which would spell an end to their expansion, or sink them, which would give a casus belli for US entry. And even without this, Japan has no chance in hell of "liberating" India and Australia.
 
For the Japanese to have a better run, the POD would lie in America, not Japan. If FDR is not President in 1940 and an isolationist Democrat with some crypto-Fascist sympathies like Huey Long takes his place (yeah, I know, very low probability) US entry might be postponed. especially if the IJN avoids the Philipines,
This requires a POD some time back in the late 20s, early 30s, one that makes Herbert Hoover a lot more successful and butterflies away the Great Depression. Also, FDR was a Democrat, I think you mean putting an isolationist Republican in power.

Planse flying from Guadalcanal can not cut off the U.S. supply lines to Australia. They can cut off the line to Darwin. It is 1,250 miles, one way, from Guadalcanal to Brisbane, 500 further to Sydney, and another 1,000 on top of that to Melbourne. A JAPANESE base at DARWIN would cut the Supply lines to the rest of Australia. Australia is a Continental land mass.
Just remember that the US wasn't limited to going to Australia directly, they could also pinball the supplies off NZ if they really had too. It would make things inconvenient for the Allies, but it would cripple the Japanese.
 
Sorry but a Japanese invasion of Australia and 'liberation' of India is doable only if the IJN and IJA is composed by anime characters with relative mecha and super martial arts skill.
Liberation by the URSS of all Europe is also very difficult, regaining lost territories yes, but in OTL the red army strectched is supply lines to the breaking point to get in position, more is difficult (to use an euphemis) without an enemy civil war at least.

I think you mean not mecha and super-martial arts skill but late Dragon Ball Z Super Saiyans of the break the planet if you sneeze variety on an army scale. Even then the Allies probably get Soviet super-science including the psychic squids and bear-cavalry and the USA gets Captain America so nothing really changes. :winkytongue:
 
The only way the Japanese could achieve anything close to a win in 1940 is at the conference table not on the Battlefield and even then is dangerously close to asb. The best they can achieve is to gain the maximum concessions for withdrawing from Nationalist China but to do that they have two large obsticals to overcome. First the Japanese Army would never agree to it and second niether Chiang or Roosevelt would settle for anything less than total withdrawl from the area that comprised Imperial China including Formosa. Japan MIGHT be able to keep Korea, and if for some reason Britain makes peace with Germany Indo-China. (Like it or not Vichy was the legitimate Government of France and they did agree to the Japanese take over).
 

CalBear

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This requires a POD some time back in the late 20s, early 30s, one that makes Herbert Hoover a lot more successful and butterflies away the Great Depression. Also, FDR was a Democrat, I think you mean putting an isolationist Republican in power.

Just remember that the US wasn't limited to going to Australia directly, they could also pinball the supplies off NZ if they really had too. It would make things inconvenient for the Allies, but it would cripple the Japanese.

I meant to type wouldn't cut off the rest of Australia.

*&%^

The key is that Australia is, in fact, HUGE. With combat radius of under 1,000 miles it is virtually impossible to cut the Continent off.
 
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