AHC: Islamic Industrial Revolution

With the latest possible PoD, how can the the Scientific, Economic, and subsequent Industrial Revolutions happen earlier, and primarily in Islamic nation(s)? (This is building on an older, more general discussion.) Preferably, something akin to a proto-Enlightenment also emerges.

Also, since I'm somewhat partial to them, bonus points awarded if these transformations are spearheaded in a (surviving) Caliphate of Córdoba :D
 
The scientific and economic revolutions are easier to achieve in Islamic society in general. An industrial revolution, not so much. Islam had plenty of native inquisitive humanist-types, and it's quite possible that in ATLs this cultural trend does better, and it's also possible that societies with rather sophisticated economic set-ups would establish an economic revolution. Industrialism, however, requires a society larger and more long-lived to set it up than the great bulk of Islamic empires have tended to be.
 
Well, I'm not sure if having either: a bigger Ottoman Empire that not only butterflies the Safavids but includes them or a superstate that almost looks like the Soviet Union but ruled from Samarqand without Tamerlane.
 

Phyrx

Banned
I don't know a whole lot about this topic but I think keeping the Mongols out of the Middle East would help. They put a kink in the whole Islamic Golden Age thing - leveling Baghdad and all that you know.

I wonder if a more prosperous Ottoman Empire could have been more successful. They were sitting on a buttload of oil down there, and if you can get them through the early twentieth century fairly well off, all that oil might help.
 

Riain

Banned
The precursor to the British Industrial Revolution was the Argicultural Revolution allowed the population explosion and moved people from the land into cities. Where in Dar Al Islam is most ripe for an agricultural revolution with horse-drawn seed drills and reaper-binders and intensive crop rotation with nitrogen-fixing plants in 1700?
 
The precursor to the British Industrial Revolution was the Argicultural Revolution allowed the population explosion and moved people from the land into cities. Where in Dar Al Islam is most ripe for an agricultural revolution with horse-drawn seed drills and reaper-binders and intensive crop rotation with nitrogen-fixing plants in 1700?

Not very many places. The Middle East is short on good agricultural land.
 
Well, I'm not sure if having either: a bigger Ottoman Empire that not only butterflies the Safavids but includes them or a superstate that almost looks like the Soviet Union but ruled from Samarqand without Tamerlane.
I wonder if a more prosperous Ottoman Empire could have been more successful. They were sitting on a buttload of oil down there, and if you can get them through the early twentieth century fairly well off, all that oil might help.
Perhaps the Indo-Gangetic plain?

I'd be cautious about using the Ottomans or Mughals* -- remember, these changes happened in Europe circa starting in the 16th and 17th Centuries, around when the OE really came into prominence...

*yes, there was Islam in India before them, but AIUI not enough to create a really "Islamic" state

The precursor to the British Industrial Revolution was the Argicultural Revolution allowed the population explosion and moved people from the land into cities. Where in Dar Al Islam is most ripe for an agricultural revolution with horse-drawn seed drills and reaper-binders and intensive crop rotation with nitrogen-fixing plants in 1700?

Wouldn't Spain (or rather, Al-Andus) be a pretty good candidate?
 
Luckily the Islamic world extends beyond the middle east.

Perhaps the Indo-Gangetic plain?

That would be my guess if circumstances permitted (circumstances involving details I don't know about the area).

India is fertile and rich, that's usually been a good combination for development.
 

Esopo

Banned
You need some muslim university or scholar beginning to develop the scientific method. Whitout that, no industrial revolution is possible.
 
You also need some kind of modern capitalism with shares, bonds and a stock exchange.

In Europe it was pioneered in Amsterdam to finance the large trading companies (esp. the VOC/EIC) and the large scale land reclamation projects.

Any ideas what kind of large scale private/public enterprise is possible which might lead to a stock exchange in the Islamic world?
 
You also need some kind of modern capitalism with shares, bonds and a stock exchange.

In Europe it was pioneered in Amsterdam to finance the large trading companies (esp. the VOC/EIC) and the large scale land reclamation projects.

Any ideas what kind of large scale private/public enterprise is possible which might lead to a stock exchange in the Islamic world?

Re-opening the Mad Caliph's canal in order to maintain control of the East-West trade routes. ;)
 
I'd be cautious about using the Ottomans or Mughals* -- remember, these changes happened in Europe circa starting in the 16th and 17th Centuries, around when the OE really came into prominence...

*yes, there was Islam in India before them, but AIUI not enough to create a really "Islamic" state

The Mughals weren't any more Muslim than the preceding Delhi sultanates. They were still a Muslim state ruling over a majority Hindu population- I suppose that might disqualify them depending on the stringency of the OP.
 
The Mughals weren't any more Muslim than the preceding Delhi sultanates. They were still a Muslim state ruling over a majority Hindu population- I suppose that might disqualify them depending on the stringency of the OP.

Well yeah, that too. :eek:

You need some muslim university or scholar beginning to develop the scientific method. Whitout that, no industrial revolution is possible.

Hello ;)
 
You need some muslim university or scholar beginning to develop the scientific method. Whitout that, no industrial revolution is possible.

There was a guy called, in Latin, Alhazen (Ibn al-Haytham) who did more or less that, I mean, he theorized mathematical elaboration upon experimental results as THE way to go ahead in science.
His work on optics was considered the best for centuries (in Europe until Kepler I think).

EDIT: Ninja'd :)
 
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An idea: avoid the worst part of the troubles in Andalus around the first half of the 11th century. More specifically, avoid Cordova being sacked.
That gives you a stabler, agriculturally stronger Andalus, though probably the Umayyad Caliphate is doomed anyway. You'll probably butterfly away both the Almoravids and the Almohads, though something similar to the latter would likely appear around.
Now, thank to butterflies, have some scholar from there, let's say Ibn Tufayl just because I like him :) (of course, it would not be the same person) start questioning dominant Aristotelianism instead of further developing it as the OTL Almohad age philosophers were committed to do. This line of thinking gets official support for religious reasons - let's say that the alt-Ibn Tumart TTL develops a religious ideology that needs to oppose both theologians' Atomism and philosophical Aristotelian views. At the same time, this more philosophy-friendly rule embraces some of the more "progressive" ideas of Farabi's about uplifting the people through scientific and moral education, so that education is even more widespread than OTL (and Andalus had rather impressive literacy rates for the time even IOTL). Now you have the basis for an agricultural and scientific revolution. Fast-forward, handwave these Andalusians discover America somehow, say around 1300; more or less at the same time, you have massive paradigm shift in astronomy, that helps.
From here onwards it's anyone's guess, but you have established the fundamentals for a Industrialized Andalus-Maghrib down the line. The main problem I see with this, if the relative lack of raw resources. You can fix that by conquering America for good, but at this point, it's really impossible to say what happens....
 
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Riain

Banned
Another prerequisite is easy transport and coal and iron in easy reach and large quantities. Spain doesn`t have a lot of navigable rivers or canals or huge deposits of coal and iron.
 
Oh, and to boost my scenario above, let's say that thanks to butterflies, the Mongol invasions are severely limited and don't really get that much ground in the south-western direction. Maybe they hit China differently causing a flood of Chinese skilled refugees to go to Muslim countries (that is a little bit of a stretch, I know). However, Baghdad and Alamut with their libraries are still there, and A LOT more of stuff finds its eventual way to Cordova. The Middle East in general is both better off economically and politically stabler: the Khwarezmians likely take the place of the Seljuks, and some post-Mongol dynasty would, however, displace them in Persia at end (we can call them "Ottomans" just for fun).
The Mamelukes would be very similar to OTL, only better off and probably with a lot more peace at their borders, that helps. Pilgrimage routes to Mecca are more secure, that translates into more exchange among people in general.
 
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Another prerequisite is easy transport and coal and iron in easy reach and large quantities. Spain doesn`t have a lot of navigable rivers or canals or huge deposits of coal and iron.
Transport can be fixed somehow.
Iron and coal is the trickiest part. There is some coal in Morocco, but I have no idea how exploitable would have it been with pre-Industrial tech.
 

Riain

Banned
Transport can be fixed somehow.
Iron and coal is the trickiest part. There is some coal in Morocco, but I have no idea how exploitable would have it been with pre-Industrial tech.

How? Prior to the railway water transport was the only practical bulk transport.
 
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