Discussing the Romano-wank.

[Basileus Giorgios]

We've discussed Romano-wank several times before, and in doing so, I've always had a couple of key objections to the idea- firstly, that Germania and the lands beyond it were fundamentally too backward for any process of Romanisation be able to take place in the first century AD, and secondly that any hyper-large Rome would experience overstretch and civil war. All of my objections there hold true to any story that attempts to have a giant Rome with a POD in the time of the Principate or before.

But- what if Roman expansion is able to take place at a later date? Say, the fourth century, when Rome's neighbouring states are achieving a degree of development and centralisation comparable to Gaul and Spain immediately prior to Roman conquest? Furthermore, what if Roman conquest is achieved by means of culture and religion, not strength of arms?

This is the world of a hypothetical maximal Roman world (note, not Roman Empire), in the Year of Our Lord 850.

[Kooluk Swordsman]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

But- what if Roman expansion is able to take place at a later date? Say, the fourth century, when Rome's neighbouring states are achieving a degree of development and centralisation comparable to Gaul and Spain immediately prior to Roman conquest? Furthermore, what if Roman conquest is achieved by means of culture and religion, not strength of arms?.

That's not really conquest, unless those peoples willingly agreed to merge with Rome.

I don't think it's possible to conquer by Soft Power, and Rome would never have the means to conquer such a land mass through Hard Power.

[Tobit]

In that sense "Christendom" could've expanded to that if Islam is eliminated and all the different Councils of the Church successfully eliminate or compromise with the different heresies.

The thing is the great flowering of christianity also ignited a huge amount of chaos. Doctrine was almost immediatly a problem as churches started to organise.

I could see a Maximal Catholic church rule over that, but it would be a very difficult. And it wouldn't be very Roman at all. Being able to spread Catholic institutions such as Monastaries, Churches and nunneries also increases the likely hood of heresy.

Perhaps Mohammed would be the Patriarch of Arabian Church? In that case I think the spread in Arabia isn't very plausible since he was able to basically unite the Penisula. In that case it should be entirely Roman Catholocised.

[Basileus Giorgios]

I. The island of Thule was discovered around fifty years ago by sailors blown off course from Hibernia, and has been claimed by the Emperor- but it remains largely unsettled. A few fishing communities and Hiberian monasteries are all that stand on the island, for now.

II. Hibernia and Caledonia remain notionally independent. A major and damaging Celtic invasion of the province of Britannia was defeated late in the 410s by the Roman governor, who attempted to force Roman sponsored monarchs upon the various Celtic groups. Initial attempts at this proved difficult, but intermittent Roman effort, especially from the late sixth century onward, eventually resulted in centralised monarchies in both lands (Caledonia from 596, Hibernia from 612) following Thessalonian Orthodoxy*.

III. The peoples of Scandia initially violently repulsed attempts at Christian conversion from the Germanic kingdoms to their south, and stepped up raiding upon both Roman Britain and the Germanic kingdoms, especially Saxony. Roman reprisal eventually began, directed from Britain, late in the seventh century, and took a similar form to the pacification of the Celts- the identification of a pro-Roman warlord, and the provision of said warlord with manpower and money with which to defeat his rivals. Coastal Scania was subdued relatively rapidly, but the central areas took somewhat longer, and even now, the region is poor and backward.

IV. The five main kingdoms of the Rhine and lower Danube frontiers- that of the Saxons, Franks, Alemmani, Vandals and Huns are not technically all Germanic- indeed, the Huns are descended from steppe tribes, though they have long since been absorbed into Romano-Germanic culture. All five kingdoms served as a template for the beginning of the second phase of major Roman expansion, with the Roman selection of kings (often successful mercenaries in Roman service), and the promotion of their claims by both Emperor and Church. Cultural differences on either side of the frontier are now minimal- these kingdoms drink wine, plan grid-shaped cities with abundant bathhouses and monasteries, and drive gravel roads across the landscape. Direct Roman interference is often minimal, politically, though uppity monarchs are generally undermined or slapped down militarily, as was the case in the Francian revolt of the 820s.

V. The kingdoms of the Sklavenoi to the east demonstrate the "ripple" impact of new Roman Imperialism- with Rome's Germanic clients pushing Roman ideals onto the Sclavenic peoples to the east, and prompting centralisation and Christianity. As befits their distance from the frontier, and limited direct contact with either Milan or Constantinople, these people are less thoroughly Romanised than are the Germans (their kings still legislate in their own languages, for example), but nonetheless count as part of the Roman world.

VI. Roman interference in Scania prompted the flight of thousands of pagans towards the wilds of the east, where they settled- but even there, the long reach of the Empire and her Germanic confederates could not be escaped. Romanisation took the usual pattern, and came rather more quickly than expected. Paganism still plays a part in the dark forests of this cold outer part of the Roman world, though.

VII. The steppe peoples are, in many ways, not thoroughly Romanised: they have few cities, and in many ways retain many of the traditions of their ancestors in a way that the Germans and Scanians do not. They do, however, benefit from a great deal of direct contact with Constantinople, and act as an "early warning system" for an Empire ever paranoid about the threat of attackers from the East. These peoples- Khazars, Avars, Bulgars and Alans- also provide the bedrock of the army of the Eastern Roman Empire, sending many eager recruits to the Eastern Emperor annually.

VIII. The Gothic kingdom is the oldest, richest, and most trusted of Rome's Germanic clients- and, ironically, the one that prompted the second expansionist phase, thanks to the activities of Goths in the Balkans in the 370s. Nowadays, though, the Gothic kingdom acts as one of the Empire's most feared attack dogs, eager to stamp out trouble amongst clients more shaky in their loyalty to Church and Emperor. For this, the Gothic monarchy is rewarded by an endless stream of gold, silks, and even Imperial princesses- and, even more alluringly, the promise of a Patriarch for the whole Gothic race.

IX. The establishment of a large Lombard kingdom in the former province of Dacia was an unpleasant surprise to the West Roman authorities, who spent several decades suffering surprise defeats at Lombard hands around the turn of the fifth century. Eventually, the Lombards were subdued, but their realm is larger and more independent minded than that of the other Germanic states on Milan's frontiers.

X. Roman domination of Caucasian states is nothing new- and the collaboration lengthened in the fifth century to ceding territory to the king of Armenia in exchange for support in the wars against Iran. Nowadays, these small states are thoroughly Romanised, though jealously proud of their own distinct cultural tradition. This is one area where religious deviance amongst client monarchs is tolerated by Constantinople- campaigning in the Caucasus is a difficult and expensive business- and so several heretical Christian sects survive here in the mountains.

XI. The fall of the Sasanian monarchy under the twin blows of Roman and Hephthalite pressure in the late fifth century was initially hoped by the Eastern Emperor Anthemius to presage his own triumph as a New Alexander, conquering as far as India. Though Anthemius was indeed able to seize Mesopotamia (see below), his arrogance came back to haunt him when he was captured and executed while campaigning in Parthia. Since then, outright subjugation of the Iranians has been abandoned in favour of allowing them a degree of freedom- though Christianity is forcefully demanded by the Roman authorities operating in Ctesiphon.

XII. The Arab tribes have long been courted by Constantinople, guarding, as they do, the riches of Syria and Mesopotamia from the wolfish heathens of the central desert. Arab kingdoms are ruled by so-called "Phylarchs".

XIII. With the new Imperialism really stepping up around the year 500, it was inevitable that the African monarchies of the Nile valley would be drawn ever more tightly into the Roman cultural sphere, and so it has proved. Not only do these southern kings provide a steady stream of gold and ivory from the dark south of the continent, they also, perhaps more valuably, guard the souls of heathens to the south, sending out huge numbers of Thessalonian missionaries. Recently, with Roman support, they have acted against the horror of Jewish kingdoms in southern Arabia, with a serious degree of success.

XIV. Kings of the Mauri cling to a precarious existence on the margins of the desert and mountains- it is perhaps understandable that they are eager to accept Roman gold and support in such a hostile environment.

XV. The province of Egypt remains what is has always been- a golden breadbasket of the utmost importance to the Roman authorities, despite the emergence of religious difficulties. These, in Egypt, are treated with a light touch by Constantinople. Better to focus, the Imperial government reasons, on common Roman-ness and Christianity, than to pick fights. This has been abundantly made clear by the apparently divinely sanctioned deaths of not one, but two, persecuting Emperors around the year 750.

XVI. Like Egypt, but less hassle, Africa is religiously solid and extremely productive. Carthage has been, for some centuries, the largest city of the Western Empire, and the African coastline is studded with fat Roman cities.

XVII. Hispania is something of a backwater to the Romans, especially away from its Mediterranean zone. Its authorities have in recent years taken to sending exploratory fleets and small armies down the western coast of Africa, which have returned with a few slaves, but little else to report. It seems that Hispania is doomed to remain well away from the heart of the Roman Empire for evermore.

XVIII. Nearly a thousand years after initial conquest, and Gaul is a thoroughly Romanised environment, home to the Western Empire's second city at Trier. The province lies at the end of the route that brings amber and timber from the forests of the client kingdoms into the Western Empire, and, as such, has developed a thriving industry of merchants and inns. This very Roman-ness, though, has caused some unrest in Gaul in recent years, with the Bishops of Trier and Lugdunum in particular becoming increasingly annoyed by their lack of influence upon the decisions of the Patriarch of Rome.

XIX. Britannia, once marginal, is growing increasingly wealthy, with the threat of raiding barbarians now a distant memory. The province may never match Gaul for prosperity- but, as the most distant part of the Empire, it does well enough most of the time.

XX. The core zone of the Western Empire encompasses the fertile valleys of Northern Italy and the Imperial capital, Milan. This region comes exclusively under the control of the Western Emperor, with no Magister Militum to deputise for him. The main highways from Milan to the northern protectorates are carved through the Alpes, and are constantly filled with moving peoples.

XXI. Italy is the spiritual home of the Empire, even if, in many terms, it is as much a backwater as Spain or Britain is. The Empire's richest men, the Senate of Rome, dominate affairs in this province, but are increasingly being challenged by the ever-uppity Roman Patriarch.

XXII. Illyria is famed as the home of Rome's heroes- from the great Constantine back in the fourth century to the generals who lead the Scanian campaigns in the past couple of centuries. Nowadays, though, with threats to the Empire's security long since diminished, Illyria can do little but look back on her glorious past, and long for the day when she can once again act as the Empire's most valuable region.

XXIII. Macedonia is another diocese rich in history, but increasingly left irrelevant in this new golden age for Rome. With philosophy long since having left the shores of Greece for Egypt and Syria, the province acts as little more than a tourist attraction- though her cities remain flourishing and wealthy with the standard dividends of peace.

XXIV. The Emperor in Constantinople controls a large strip of the eastern Haemic peninsula, and much of Anatolia too, directly. Somewhat more powerful in general than his Western counterpart, the Eastern Emperor also has to be more politically active, having to deal with four Patriarchs, a Senate, and Iranian, Steppe, and Rhos clients who are decidedly less deferential than are the Germans and Celts. Constantinople, needless to say, is exceedingly rich, and is the largest city of the Empire, fed not only by Egypt, but also by the wheat fields of the Goths.

XXV. The Diocese of the East, made up of Syria, Palestine and Cilicia, is a land where religious passions bubble and boil beneath a constant thunder of trade, as caravans roll into the region from all directions. Rare is the Syrian city without its own living saint, camped in the ruins of long since unnecessary walls.

XXVI. The Magister Militum per Armeniacum, or, to use his Greek title, the Strategos of the Armeniakon Themata, rules a small and, on the face of it, relatively poor area. On the other hand, he does have to deal with the religious sensibilities of the haughty Caucasian princes, so is one of the more important figures of the East Roman establishment.

XXVII. Mesopotamia is, as the newest Diocese of the Empire, a still-as-yet relatively un-Romanised land, dominated still by cities built in mudbrick, and a whole swirl of competing Christian and Jewish sects, not to mention the odd Zoroastrian holdout. It is, nonetheless, exceedingly rich, and unlike Egypt is not connected by sea to the Mediterranean, so is spared from having to pay a tribute in grain to Constantinople or Italy. Accordingly, Ctesiphon is a huge city. The provinces of Mesopotamia are highly militarised still- a legacy of the persistent Roman fear of a Persian comeback.

XXVIII. The last kingdom of the Roman world out of the Emperor's grasp, the Jews of the Arabian coast are skilful pirates and merchants, adept at stirring up trouble in the neighbouring Roman vassals to ensure their own success. For how long the Jews can keep up this delicate balancing act, though, is anyone's guess. In the long term, the experience of the past thousand years and more has seemed to show that no-one can resist Rome with impunity for long, and there seems no reason to doubt that the Jews of Arabia will defy this trend.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Thought the plausibility (or otherwise!) of this might have attracted some people. Eurofed, Elfwine, LSCatilina, wherefore art thou?

[TMS2224]

Interesting.... And why the R+J? I had enough of that earlier today...


Two households, both alike in dignity
In fair Verona where we lay our scene...


Typed from memory. NOT GOOD.

[General_Finley]

I can't say much about plausibility, but I can say that I love the concept and the explanation behind each state. I think it would be interesting to see what ITTL Persia is like. Were the regions not cleaved off by the Romans conquered by the the White Huns? If so it would be interesting to see how the Persian state evolves and also what consequences this would have for the Gupta Empire.

[Snake Featherston]

Any variant of Classical Rome, to survive, needs to find a means of legitimacy more sophisticated than "My legion can kick your ass." If that's not done, you can use all the Handwavium in the multiverse and Rome still falls apart because sooner or later someone's going to start a war when nobody's competent enough to win over all of Rome to his side and/or a civil war just when the Germanics *and* Persia happen to be at a peak of strength, producing the same effect. Don't change this and Rome dies under its own weight regardless.

[Kaiphranos]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Thought the plausibility (or otherwise!) of this might have attracted some people. Eurofed, Elfwine, LSCatilina, wherefore art thou?

I think one or more of the listed people may be kicked at the moment, thus their absence from this discussion...

On an entirely different note, having spent the evening randomly reading up on the medieval Sahel (or trying to), I wonder how things would be developing south of the Sahara...

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Thought the plausibility (or otherwise!) of this might have attracted some people. Eurofed, Elfwine, LSCatilina, wherefore art thou?

I think there's something worth exploring here, but I'm not familiar enough with the areas beyond OTL's Roman borders to know how well it would work.


I do think its the only chance of "Roman sphere" Germania, but that's not saying much.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by General_Finley

I can't say much about plausibility, but I can say that I love the concept and the explanation behind each state. I think it would be interesting to see what ITTL Persia is like. Were the regions not cleaved off by the Romans conquered by the the White Huns? If so it would be interesting to see how the Persian state evolves and also what consequences this would have for the Gupta Empire.

Thanks very much. Yeah, I vaguelly envisaged the Hephthalites as setting themselves up a fairly powerful state in what had been the eastern provinces of Ērānšahr in the late fifth century- though this would have been partially displaced by the Turks by 600. I still think a Hephthalite state in Bactria could exist, though- perhaps one converted by this point to Zoroastrianism by fleeing members of that faith?

I'd like to get round to covering the rest of the world in Late Roman-wank universe, but for that I'd need the assistance of others.

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Any variant of Classical Rome, to survive, needs to find a means of legitimacy more sophisticated than "My legion can kick your ass." If that's not done, you can use all the Handwavium in the multiverse and Rome still falls apart because sooner or later someone's going to start a war when nobody's competent enough to win over all of Rome to his side and/or a civil war just when the Germanics *and* Persia happen to be at a peak of strength, producing the same effect. Don't change this and Rome dies under its own weight regardless.

You're right, of course, and the larger the Rome, the larger the potential for civil war. I think in this world, something of a co-dependence has emerged, with the two Roman Emperors holding most, but by no means all, of the cards. In the client states, things are rather more clear cut- those who defy the system of Christian and Roman domination are swiftly turned upon by neighbouring vassals, without the Empire having to lift a finger. The aristocracies of the vassal states are now too closely ingrained into the "Roman dream" for many of them to seriously consider any sort of an opt out- even should one try from time to time, he is inevitably swimming against the current and never lasts long.

The flip side of this coin, on the other hand, is the potential for the federate monarchs to side with one or another claimant to the throne in Roman civil wars, which I'd imagine will still happen from time to time ITTL. I'd suggest that the fact that Rome here, ringed as she is by loyal clients, is rather less filled with uppity generals and more a place of scholars, and, furthermore, that the Empire's been fairly lucky to escape any seriously damaging civil wars up until this point. It would, though, be ASB to expect this luck to hold out indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

I think one or more of the listed people may be kicked at the moment, thus their absence from this discussion...

On an entirely different note, having spent the evening randomly reading up on the medieval Sahel (or trying to), I wonder how things would be developing south of the Sahara...

If you have any ideas, do let me know. I think there'd be a stream of Christian missionaries, and the demands of a market encompassing not only Rome, but most of Europe and western Asia through her would do interesting things to trans-African trade patterns. And we shouldn't forget the influence the Jewish merchant states of Arabia might have on the East African coastline. Jewish Zanzibar, perhaps? A Khazar-analogue in Kenya?

Originally Posted by Elfwine

I think there's something worth exploring here, but I'm not familiar enough with the areas beyond OTL's Roman borders to know how well it would work.


I do think its the only chance of "Roman sphere" Germania, but that's not saying much.

Aye, and to that level, I think it's worth exploring.

What major doubts do you have about the scenario? The aforementioned amplification of the threat of civil war does seem to me to be the biggest threat to the unity of the Roman world in this TL.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Aye, and to that level, I think it's worth exploring.

What major doubts do you have about the scenario? The aforementioned amplification of the threat of civil war does seem to me to be the biggest threat to the unity of the Roman world in this TL.

Part of it is going to be "Why does anyone want to be Romanized?"

I don't have any specific things to point to at the moment (juggling a few threads and discussions and so my attention is split), except for Persia - which I think is going to be hard to manage even at this level.

It's big, it's highly independent from Rome culturally, and the Empire has a lot to worry about.

This could potentially be like Judea's rebellions, only many times worse, which has all sorts of bad consequences elsewhere.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Variant on a theme of the map here- this one's showing the linguistic, genetic, and cultural heritage of the Roman Empire and its client states. Roughly, this can be broken down into...

A Latin Western Empire and a Greek Eastern Empire as OTL (with some blurring- Sicily is largely Greek, and the northern Balkans are largely Latin, plus various other languages are widely spoken, particularly in Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia).

To add to this, we have:

- Celts
- Germans
- "Normans"
- Slavs
- Various "steppe peoples"
- Caucasians
- Iranians
- Arabs
- Moors
- Ethiopians

Here's the map.

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Part of it is going to be "Why does anyone want to be Romanized?"

I don't have any specific things to point to at the moment (juggling a few threads and discussions), except for Persia - which I think is going to be hard to manage even at this level.

It's big, it's highly independent from Rome culturally, and the Empire has a lot to worry about.

This could potentially be like Judea's rebellions, only many times worse, which has all sorts of bad consequences elsewhere.

For Romanisation, I'd imagine with the "barbarians" of Europe and Arabia, it'd be the same lures as OTL- lavish subsidies from the Emperor, court positions, and lavish subsidies again. Plus, the ability to save one's soul by interacting with the Church, of course. I think the power of the Church will be a major issue ITTL.

Agree with you on Persia. I'd say the reason the vassalisation of the Iranians has worked, more or less, is because of the fairly light touch of the authorities in Ctesiphon and Constantinople- that is, to insist on Christianity, but little else, from their Caucasian and Iranian "allies". That, and the contentment of the various great Iranian families to be more or less left to their own devices by the Romans, rather than to have to acknowledge any one of their rivals as their superior. In western Asia as in Europe- any leader of a client state aiming to upset the established order first has to get through all of his worried peers before he can even get round to facing a Roman army in combat.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

For Romanisation, I'd imagine with the "barbarians" of Europe and Arabia, it'd be the same lures as OTL- lavish subsidies from the Emperor, court positions, and lavish subsidies again. Plus, the ability to save one's soul by interacting with the Church, of course. I think the power of the Church will be a major issue ITTL.

True. But I think that won't extend indefinitely - certainly gives Rome a great deal of sway, but it'll be heavily dependent on the power of the Church and the ambitions of the Germans and steppe peoples (whichever one's we're talking about at the moment) - still, in the sense the Commonwealth plus the US is the (present day) Anglosphere, a Romansphere where the Emperor is acknowledged as Supreme in some vaguely abstract, vaguely overlord sense wouldn't be too far fetched.

Enough that Rome has ties to the area, but any cooperation is just that - cooperation between the Empire and its western (Persia being the eastern one for this purpose) neighbors, not "Where does the Emperor want us to march?"

Looking at it on the whole - some kingdoms may be closer, like the Goths seem to have become for various reasons. Others will be more independent minded but willing to accept the concept in a theoretical sort of way.

Agree with you on Persia. I'd say the reason the vassalisation of the Iranians has worked, more or less, is because of the fairly light touch of the authorities in Ctesiphon and Constantinople- that is, to insist on Christianity, but little else, from their Caucasian and Iranian "allies". That, and the contentment of the various great Iranian families to be more or less left to their own devices by the Romans, rather than to have to acknowledge any one of their rivals as their superior. In western Asia as in Europe- any leader of a client state aiming to upset the established order first has to get through all of his worried peers before he can even get round to facing a Roman army in combat.

Yeah. That might be enough to get a nominally Christian, nominally obedient Persia for a while.

[Libertad]

So this Roman sphere at the West is more or less a Latin speaking High Middle Age mix of classical Roman culture kind of thing while the Roman sphere at the West is more or less a pluralistic Christian Byzantine mix of classical Roman and Greek culture kind of thing too? Plus a Christianized Persia?

I agree with Elfwine. A sort of "Commonwealth" kind of thing is the only way that this Roman sphere could ever last just like the Chinese civilization. There is that theoretical recognition of a political and religious overlord in Rome and Constantinople but that's it. So, this is like a Holy Roman Empire kind of thing too right? Existence of theoretically powerful political institutions in Rome and Constantinople but the practical control of these institutions extends only to a limited geographical area. Beyond that, it's other people who are practically the kings and queens.

I like the idea. Practically this is still Rome but it's not the Rome of classical times anymore. It's inevitable that it will morphed into something else, just like OTL with the Constantinopolitan Romans. When I'm hearing someone talking about the fall of Rome, I'm always making a clarification... " Is this about Classical Rome?" or "Rome with the Byzantines? THEY'RE ROME TOO." So the answers are either 476 AD or 1453. Not to mention, the Holy Roman Empire which only dissolved in 1806.

Any chance that of making up ATL Holy Roman institutions in TTL? At least when sectional divisions started to sprout out?

[CandyDragon]

Originally Posted by Libertad

When I'm hearing someone talking about the fall of Rome, I'm always making a clarification... " Is this about Classical Rome?" or "Rome with the Byzantines? THEY'RE ROME TOO." So the answers are either 476 AD or 1453. Not to mention, the Holy Roman Empire which only dissolved in 1806.

Or, by some accounts, the Ottoman Empire, which ended in 1923/1924.

[Russian]

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

I think one or more of the listed people may be kicked at the moment, thus their absence from this discussion...

On an entirely different note, having spent the evening randomly reading up on the medieval Sahel (or trying to), I wonder how things would be developing south of the Sahara...

You might have a look right here

[Nugax]

Having settlement on the steppes in this era is just silly (and for those who don't know, the south of Ukraine is also short grass plains). There was very good reason why Kiev and the forest line rather than the coast was at the southern limit of the Rus' polity and why despite over a thousand years of settlement the Greeks never got more than coastal cities.



This land is fundamentally unsuitable to settled agriculture before crop evolution, dryland agriculture, and the material base that makes dryland agriculture possible have developed. In addition before gunpowder horse nomads will have an unbeatable advantage on this, their home turf.

This zone will not be romanised, its an absurdity an order of magnitude greater than the romanisation of germania.

[The Ubbergeek]

I always wondered on the other side if the 'Low Empire' days couldn't have had some reforms on the political, economical, and army sides ongoing to help the West side at least to survive and fare actually better. Even if it means ending this tradition, culture and nation into a new 'créole' way.