Post-war German armaments

Nietzsche

Banned
Alright folks, I'm going to lay some ground rules-
1. Germany wins WW2.

2.The borders are as follows(thanks to SRegan for his wonderful Axis-wank series).

3. How Germany won is not important. Brutal, bitter war is all you need to know, that ended in 43-44-ish. You do not need any future information.

4. This is also not the place to discuss the treatment of the conquered peoples.

5. What this is the place for is where German weapons technology goes. They've got alot on their plate, as keeping conquered areas pacified will be a tall order.



This isn't just about the weapons either, it's tactics, strategy. If this starts getting politic, I'll get someone to close it. However, if you have a political question that has a legitimate impact on said discussions of weapons development, feel free to ask. This includes things like hostile powers to Germany.

Carry on.

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Considering that Germans now has Mittelafrika and the East Indies, they need more rugged small arms. The Gemans will likely develop SMGs based on the PPSh-41. As for Assault Rifles, the evolutions of the Sturmgewehr will likely be (more) similar to the AK-47/74, due to the need for reliability in harsher environments. an M14 analogue may be developed as the new semi-automatic battle rifle, but it's more likely that the STG-47 (thats what I'll call it :p ) will be adopted as standard issue by the German Armed Forces.

With artillery, rockets will likely become more important than tube artillery, and whatever the Germans make will likely be a Nebelwerfer-Katyusha hybrid.

As far as the Navy goes, the Germans won't develop submarines as much as they did, aside from SSNs. This is because they are going to focus on force projection, which is the job of large surface fleets. Due to Nazi egomania, they'll likely build some useless battleships, but they'll also build some aircraft carriers, which actually have value.

In the air, the Germans will develop further their jets. I don't know whether the Germans focused on speed, maneuverability or firepower, so aviation experts could answer better than me on this. The Germans did have plans for the 'Amerikabomber' which was an inter-continental strategic bomber. If they planned to fight the US, or were in a Cold War with the US, they would also need advanced Naval Bombers.

For WMDs, I imagine the Germans would develop biological and chemical weapons, largely for clearing troublesome populations in the new colonies. One very interesting thing about the Nazis is that, despite the fact that many of the projects were funding sinkholes, they were very imaginative. There will definitely be Nazi ICBMs, and a Trans-Atlantic Cold War will focus on ICBMs, rather than tactical nukes or SRBMs.

The Germans will probably give up their mega-tank designs, but will continue experimenting with flying saucers, and possibly even Tesla-style energy coil weapons.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
With all the swamp land in Africa and Siberia the Germans hold, they will need a rugged, amphibious, tracked vehicle. Something like the USA M-113. It will have a boatish looking hull and need to be exceptionally easy to fix. The Germans may struggle with this because they may over engineer it.

The Germans will need to develop tropical weather uniforms, relearn how to handle yellow fever, malaria, etc.

They have a lot of coast line to defend. They will need a lot of rugged, seaworthy, and cheap patrol vessels. Lightly armed for Africa and Indonesia. Being Nazi, they probably will have 40 different designs where only 2 are needed.

Did the British Empire survive intact?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Considering that Germans now has Mittelafrika and the East Indies, they need more rugged small arms. The Gemans will likely develop SMGs based on the PPSh-41. As for Assault Rifles, the evolutions of the Sturmgewehr will likely be (more) similar to the AK-47/74, due to the need for reliability in harsher environments. an M14 analogue may be developed as the new semi-automatic battle rifle, but it's more likely that the STG-47 (thats what I'll call it :p ) will be adopted as standard issue by the German Armed Forces.
While I agree with your idea in principle, the problem is that outside appearances it is nothing like the AK. The STG, while undoubtly a good weapon, was as complicated & over-engineered that nigh everything else German.

With artillery, rockets will likely become more important than tube artillery, and whatever the Germans make will likely be a Nebelwerfer-Katyusha hybrid.
I like this idea, a good deal.

As far as the Navy goes, the Germans won't develop submarines as much as they did, aside from SSNs. This is because they are going to focus on force projection, which is the job of large surface fleets. Due to Nazi egomania, they'll likely build some useless battleships, but they'll also build some aircraft carriers, which actually have value.
I agree about the BB projects, but I believe once Carpetmuncher kicks the bucket the Germans will start pumping out submarines, and focusing more on fast, heavily armed ships be on above or below water.

In the air, the Germans will develop further their jets. I don't know whether the Germans focused on speed, maneuverability or firepower, so aviation experts could answer better than me on this. The Germans did have plans for the 'Amerikabomber' which was an inter-continental strategic bomber. If they planned to fight the US, or were in a Cold War with the US, they would also need advanced Naval Bombers.
I dunno. I'm not sure if they'd bother with strategic bombers, they preferred tactical ones such as the Stuka or 88. As for fighters, I think they'd pour money into interceptors.

For WMDs, I imagine the Germans would develop biological and chemical weapons, largely for clearing troublesome populations in the new colonies. One very interesting thing about the Nazis is that, despite the fact that many of the projects were funding sinkholes, they were very imaginative. There will definitely be Nazi ICBMs, and a Trans-Atlantic Cold War will focus on ICBMs, rather than tactical nukes or SRBMs.
No issues here at all.

The Germans will probably give up their mega-tank designs, but will continue experimenting with flying saucers, and possibly even Tesla-style energy coil weapons.
Ehh, I'm gonna call bullshit on the directed-energy or flying saucer stuff.

Did the British Empire survive intact?
They have everything they didn't lose to the Jerries.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The Germans will probably give up their mega-tank designs, but will continue experimenting with flying saucers, and possibly even Tesla-style energy coil weapons.

I think you melted my brain. *checks ears* Yeah. You did.



There seems to be a bit of an instinctive tilt towards the Soviet-style of warfare, when in fact if anything the Germans were very much more in the mold of Western militaries. If we're looking for analogues in the real world for something the Germans would be using in a neo-colonial African setting we should be looking less at Soviet weapons and more at what was actually used by the powers that be in those countries.

The Portuguese, during their wars of decolonization in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, made extensive use of the German G3 rifle, as well as the Belgian FN-FAL. They both used the standard 7.62mm NATO long round, not to be confused with the 7.62mm Warsaw Pact medium round. It's a heavy round: it does it's damage by pure blunt force delivered by a single hit. If you are hit with a NATO long round, 9 times out of 10 you will NOT get up. The used the MG42 (originally in the regular 7.92mm and later in NATO standard) until the end of the war.

They used the smaller Alouette III helicopter in a number of roles, including CASEVAC and transport. Perhaps one of the most pertinent aircraft they used (as far as this scenario is concerned) is the Ju52, which they were using for paradrops into the 1960s. It's not the C-47, but it's definitely a reliable aircraft. To get a good idea of how the Junkers could last with adequate support, I'd put forward the facts that the Spanish and French were both building them after the war, and that the Swiss were operating the aircraft until the early-80s.



The Rhodesians, in their Bush War, were armed with the FAL (and small amounts of G3s towards the end) as their primary battle rifle. Just like the G3 the Portuguese used, the FAL was a heavy rifle: Americans could liken it to the M14. It was a bruiser. Myself, I've fired the Canadian version of the FAL: it'll shoot through trees, tires, car doors, just about anything. Their light machine gun was the FN-MAG, a weapon that had many traits with the BAR and the MG42.

The Rhodesian Air Force used the Alouette as well, in much the same way the Portuguese did. But they also put an important spin on it, developing the use of helicopters teamed with air assault troops into a counterinsurgency strategy termed Fireforce. If there is ONE STRATEGY that defined counterinsurgency in either Africa or Southeast Asia in the Cold War, it is Fireforce.

The concept was to employ ground based units in a patrol role: they would "move to contact," patroling with an intent to find and fix enemy combatants in a single localized area at which time they would call for back up. This backup would be prepositioned nearby at a scratch airfield in light helicopters (the Alouette IIIs could only carry 4 passengers along with the pilot and gunner) as well as in prop-driven transports (C-47s in the case of Rhodesia and South Africa) holding paratroops.
They would be vectored into the contact location by a command helicopter, then the troops would use the concept of "vertical envelopment": there would be no attempt to drop the troops in a single group and then have them fan out. They would instead be dropped exactly where they would need to be to surround the enemy, then set up ambushes or advance into the contact from the flanks.



So...what can we take from this cursory look? The weaponry involved (and the tactics) have almost nothing at all to do with the Soviet model: in a world where the USSR was defeated, the Soviet model would be discredited. Also, the AK-47 became popular because it was able to be fielded by poorly trained guerillas with a minimal support and training base. The German military is the opposite of that: they will have extensive logistical lines, as well as comprehensive basic and advanced infantry training. Thus the Wehrmacht can be trusted to use a technically advanced battle rifle like the G3 or FAL, not an assault rifle in an intermediate caliber like the M-16 or AK-47.

They will also be using tactics similar to the French in Algeria, the Rhodesians in the Bush War, or perhaps the French in Indochina. They would probably not, however, be using tactics like the British in Malaya, Borneo (the Confrontation), or Northern Ireland.

The difference here is clear: in Algeria, Rhodesia, and Indochina (and Vietnam later), the counterinsurgency effort was largely a military one. It was seen as a problem that could be solved through the use of force as a pacification tool.

In Malaya, Northern Ireland, and the Confrontation, a Hearts-and-Minds approach (the term was actually coined by an SAS officer during the Confronation) was used to attempt to interface with the local population.



As far as reading material on the nuts and bolts of this subject, I'd like to throw some titles out that are on my bookshelf, along with a reason why I'm recommending them:

The First Helicopter War: Logistics and Mobility in Algeria, 1954-1962 by Charles L. Shrader. This book is an amazing work that focuses not on the war itself, but on how the French military developed tactics and support services for the helicopters that came of age in the Algerian War.

Imperial Reckoning: The Untold Story of Britain's Gulag in Kenya by Caroline Elkins. During the Mau Mau Uprising in the early 50s, the British military sent a fair amount of Kikuyu tribespeople to their early graves through torture and squalid camps where they were imprisoned. If you read this book, it would be best to read something else on the Mau Mau Uprising first, so you can get a good idea of when Elkins is correct and where she is completely going over the deep end of sensationalism.

Street Without Joy by Bernard Fall. Fall is the best and most informed historian on any aspect of any post-WWII combat in what would become Vietnam. But Street is about the French involvement in Indochina from just after the end of WWII to the final separation of their colony. It's an amazing work, helped a lot because Fall was present for many of the events, from airdropping supplies in the Red River Valley to drinking in Hanoi with a Vietnamese golddigger who jumped from commander to commander.

An Unpopular War by J.H. Thompson. An oral history of the South African Border War, as told by Citizen Force troopers. The CF was composed of men taken from all walks of life for 2 years of service before they were allowed back into the civilian world. They performed all duties: from cooks to the Recces (South African special forces), and came home to be successful businessmen and politicians as well as scarred drunks. This is a very honest depiction of what a state of constant war does to population, and probably the closest you could get to an actual account of post-WWII German colonialism.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
So...what can we take from this cursory look? The weaponry involved (and the tactics) have almost nothing at all to do with the Soviet model: in a world where the USSR was defeated, the Soviet model would be discredited. Also, the AK-47 became popular because it was able to be fielded by poorly trained guerillas with a minimal support and training base. The German military is the opposite of that: they will have extensive logistical lines, as well as comprehensive basic and advanced infantry training. Thus the Wehrmacht can be trusted to use a technically advanced battle rifle like the G3 or FAL, not an assault rifle in an intermediate caliber like the M-16 or AK-47.

They will also be using tactics similar to the French in Algeria, the Rhodesians in the Bush War, or perhaps the French in Indochina. They would probably not, however, be using tactics like the British in Malaya, Borneo (the Confrontation), or Northern Ireland.

The difference here is clear: in Algeria, Rhodesia, and Indochina (and Vietnam later), the counterinsurgency effort was largely a military one. It was seen as a problem that could be solved through the use of force as a pacification tool.

In Malaya, Northern Ireland, and the Confrontation, a Hearts-and-Minds approach (the term was actually coined by an SAS officer during the Confronation) was used to attempt to interface with the local population.

Thank you so much for posting.

Do you think the Heer would continue to have the riflemen be support for the machine gunner, or would they switch to the MG being the support for the riflemen?

I remember we spoke some on the G3 rifle, I've personally always seen it as the natural evolution of the StG-44. Think they would develop a G3 as well? I know the MG44, and hell, even the MG34 aren't going anywhere. Both of them are far too good to their job, even 70-60 some odd years after their introduction.

What about uniforms, combat armour, ect?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Thank you so much for posting.

Thanks for inviting me. It's always neat to put a new spin on African counterinsurgency!


Do you think the Heer would continue to have the riflemen be support for the machine gunner, or would they switch to the MG being the support for the riflemen?

I think they'd go into what the Rhodesians had: the basic Rhodesian unit was called the Stick, and had four men. (the reason was simple: that was all the Alouette III could carry) There were two riflemen, a Stick commander with a rifle, and a MAG gunner. One of the riflemen also had the radio. That would probably be the direction in which the Germans would go, in my opinion.

Now, the Fireforce concept didn't evolve in a vacuum: it was a conscious growth of the Rhodesian need to maximise limited manpower over a large area. The French in Indochina (where there weren't that many helicopters) didn't do this, but attempted to gain ground with armoured vehicles. This was mostly a failure except for one operation where they teamed the armoured vehicles with paratroops to try and pin Viet Minh forces arrayed along La Rue Sans Joie against the ocean. However, the French forces in Algeria (at the same time as Indochina) were doing it rather well.

The Americans did the same thing with the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) in their Vietnam involvement.

I remember we spoke some on the G3 rifle, I've personally always seen it as the natural evolution of the StG-44. Think they would develop a G3 as well?

There was a rifle that was actually called the StG-45 which is generally thought to be the direct descendant of the G3. It's very possible that a rifle either LIKE the G3 or fairly identical to it would come out of a Nazi-controlled Germany.


What about uniforms, combat armour, ect?

They'd probably stay with that mottled-green like the SS had. The French and Portuguese used similar designs alot and it worked pretty good.

As far as flak jackets...the US debuted one during the Korean War (I used to have a picture somewhere but I think my ex-wife has that tower) that was kind of...well...really big. I looked at it and it made me shudder. 20 pounds or so...the guy looked like the Pillsbury doughboy.

None of the powers in the wars of decolonization made regular use of flak jackets. The British didn't in the Confrontation, nor did the Americans in Vietnam or the Rhodesians or South Africans.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Thanks for inviting me. It's always neat to put a new spin on African counterinsurgency!
Nonsense, you're the forum expert on most warfare in general. However, while I agree that Africa is the most interesting scenario, some input on what they'd do in newly conquered East Europe would certainly be a joy to read from you.



I think they'd go into what the Rhodesians had: the basic Rhodesian unit was called the Stick, and had four men. (the reason was simple: that was all the Alouette III could carry) There were two riflemen, a Stick commander with a rifle, and a MAG gunner. One of the riflemen also had the radio. That would probably be the direction in which the Germans would go, in my opinion.

Now, the Fireforce concept didn't evolve in a vacuum: it was a conscious growth of the Rhodesian need to maximise limited manpower over a large area. The French in Indochina (where there weren't that many helicopters) didn't do this, but attempted to gain ground with armoured vehicles. This was mostly a failure except for one operation where they teamed the armoured vehicles with paratroops to try and pin Viet Minh forces arrayed along La Rue Sans Joie against the ocean. However, the French forces in Algeria (at the same time as Indochina) were doing it rather well.

The Americans did the same thing with the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile) in their Vietnam involvement.
Interesting. In Rhodesia, only one radio per leader? Hm. I can see how it'd be useful, reminiscent in a way to Lettow-Vorbeck's method of operation during the first war. Given Germany's large array of strategic interests, would they perhaps start making alternative or even unique weapons and weapons systems for the differing environments?


There was a rifle that was actually called the StG-45 which is generally thought to be the direct descendant of the G3. It's very possible that a rifle either LIKE the G3 or fairly identical to it would come out of a Nazi-controlled Germany.
Very interesting. I hadn't heard of the '45 til now. It's basically a prototype G3. Speaking of small arms, where do you think their grenade development would go?


They'd probably stay with that mottled-green like the SS had. The French and Portuguese used similar designs alot and it worked pretty good.
Quite right.

As far as flak jackets...the US debuted one during the Korean War (I used to have a picture somewhere but I think my ex-wife has that tower) that was kind of...well...really big. I looked at it and it made me shudder. 20 pounds or so...the guy looked like the Pillsbury doughboy.

None of the powers in the wars of decolonization made regular use of flak jackets. The British didn't in the Confrontation, nor did the Americans in Vietnam or the Rhodesians or South Africans.
Hm. Germany has an issue with manpower, however. Given their, unique requirements for being allowed into the Wehrmacht, they're not going to have alot of men to go around. Is there any sort of compromise armour that's both decent and relatively lightweight?
 
Which weapons they use depends much on who their enemies are.

Is Russia east of Germany intact, is it Red/democratic/whatelse.

How are the relations with Japan (they have DEI, why - taken by war, did Japan lose the War against the US)

Is the US hostile?

With the vast overseas posessions Germany will need a large fleet.

A large fleet will need Carriers, Cruisers and many DDs. Submarines were te backbone of the navy - any future war agianst an overseas enemy (nothing more left) will likely see a sub campaign again.

Luftwaffe will certainly focus on Jet engines. I can see a struglle beteen the rocket and strategic bombing faction - maybe both will get their share.

The reich will need a large standing army for occupation duty. Body armor might be fashionable earlier.

The heer will be organised into Occupation troops (2nd rate), Mobile Forces (Panzer/Panzergrenadier) and support troops (from Medical units to Arty and antiair.

Not sure about building MArines or using Heer troops for amphibious landings.

I am not so sure about chemical weapons, AH got gassed himself in WWI...
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Which weapons they use depends much on who their enemies are.

Is Russia east of Germany intact, is it Red/democratic/whatelse.
Russia still exists, almost soley due to British & American aid.

How are the relations with Japan (they have DEI, why - taken by war, did Japan lose the War against the US)
Japan lost because Japan never had a chance to win. German control of the DEI is because, in the peace treaty the allies signed with Germany was recognized as the legitimate successor to the Netherlands, Belgium, ect.

Is the US hostile?
Yes. Think Cold War, but much more bitter.

With the vast overseas posessions Germany will need a large fleet.
...which is what this thread is for. What weapons they might've made under these circumstances,

A large fleet will need Carriers, Cruisers and many DDs. Submarines were te backbone of the navy - any future war agianst an overseas enemy (nothing more left) will likely see a sub campaign again.

Luftwaffe will certainly focus on Jet engines. I can see a struglle beteen the rocket and strategic bombing faction - maybe both will get their share.

The reich will need a large standing army for occupation duty. Body armor might be fashionable earlier.

The heer will be organised into Occupation troops (2nd rate), Mobile Forces (Panzer/Panzergrenadier) and support troops (from Medical units to Arty and antiair.

Not sure about building MArines or using Heer troops for amphibious landings.

I am not so sure about chemical weapons, AH got gassed himself in WWI...
The very last line assumes Hitler is still alive. He's not. Hitler died not long after the war ended, and the purpose of this thread is making educated guesses on what direction the German military would go. Bio and Chemical weapons would lose any stigma when the one person against it is gone.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Not to be flippant but...

With the vast overseas posessions Germany will need a large fleet.

A large fleet will need Carriers, Cruisers and many DDs. Submarines were te backbone of the navy - any future war agianst an overseas enemy (nothing more left) will likely see a sub campaign again.

How is a carrier group going to affect counterinsurgency in Mozambique? Or pacification in Angola?

I get what you're saying: it's much more popular and flashy to buy awesome big superduper shiny ships of Awesomeness. That's true. But like America learned in Vietnam: all the carrier groups in the world aren't going to take back Hue during Tet or clear Hamburger Hill.

For those, you need boots on the ground. But your thesis brings up a good point:


Like America, Germany's Achilles Heel might end up being that it is so preoccupied with building weapons for a war which is too big to happen that it ends up losing the war it's actually IS fighting.

The reich will need a large standing army for occupation duty. Body armor might be fashionable earlier.

Where will it come from, though? The ceramics weren't around for literally decades.

In all my time of reading about counterinsurgency I have never heard of a military using body armour regularly until the 1980s, when the US was doing it mostly because the Reagan Administration's buildup literally put so much money into it they made it affordable.

And if you look at the after effects of WWII, it's not "occupation." It's "counterinsurgency." From the Dutch East Indies and Indochina in 1946 to South West Africa Territory in 1983, it was war.


The heer will be organised into Occupation troops (2nd rate), Mobile Forces (Panzer/Panzergrenadier) and support troops (from Medical units to Arty and antiair.

I think the concept of "occupation troops" will probably be phased out, man. Something like the Citizen Force and Permanent Force in South Africa would be more realistic. The concept of Second Tier troops, in my opinion, was not a permanent fixture of a modern military. It wasn't something that stayed around afterwards.

Neither the British, Portuguese, or French had "occupation" troops in their colonies after WWII that were second-tier. The troops that were there were normally regular troops spearheading task forces. The Ghurkas were the first ones into Brunei in 1962 at the beginning of the Confrontation. The Green Jackets followed them. Neither of those units were similar to the Occupation Troops of the Wehrmacht in WWII.
Neither were the French Foreign Legion troops in Algeria or Indochina.

I don't mean to knock you, man. But real life doesn't tend to support your thesis.

I am not so sure about chemical weapons, AH got gassed himself in WWI...

Personally, I don't think they'd have chemical weapons. I agree with you there. If real life experience is any indication, chemical weapons just aren't worth the trouble, and the delivery systems are needed for other things.




There was someone ealier who mentioned artillery being phased out for free-flight rockets in the vein of the Katyusha: there's two sides to that coin.
The two most widely used artillery pieces of the Cold War were the 25 pdr., which saw use with the British until 1992, and (in a general sense) the 105mm round, which was in a rather large amount of artillery pieces like the Oto Melari mountain gun and what is known in the US as the M119 Howitzer.

These are used in counterinsurgency roles (the Confrontation, the Rhodesian Bush War, the South African Border War, Vietnam, the Afghanistan and Iraq wars) because of their accuracy. One Australian veteran of the Battle of Long Tan remarked that the New Zealand artillery battery, firing 25 pdrs., could "put a shell on a postage stamp at 10 miles."

That's just not something possible with free-flight artillery rockets.

That being said, the South African Defense Force did have it's own version of the Katyusha, basically copied off captured versions of the Stalin Organ in Angola.

But that didn't stop Armscor from developing the G6, which to date was probably the best artillery piece ever developed outside of America.
 
A fleet in itself will not put down insurgencies, but you will need a fleet to prevent the insurgents to use small boats to smuggle weapons, capture freigthers... And you need the fleet for protecting yous sealanes even without insurrections.

And if you have a fleet operating far from large airbases, you need carriers to protect the other ships. and to launch strikes further inland.

body armor - as no time frame required, I assumed that body armor would show up a decade earlier as OTL. In addition you don't need occupationtroops for your colonial empire (there they will be called differently - Policeforces, Schutztruppen), but for the whole territory in eastern Europe (France maybe) you need someone to keep down insurrections... (thats why I develop body amor earlier - large amount of troops in semi hostile environment - Afghanistan/Iraq IOTL)

I fully agree on Artillery - it will still have its place even in modern armies. rockets became more prominent only gradually...

I assume ´that with G6 you mean the self propelled version of the G5 which in itself is a derivate of the GC45? - I agree thats one fine piece of artillery :)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
And if you have a fleet operating far from large airbases, you need carriers to protect the other ships. and to launch strikes further inland.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be any. But the air network in Africa is there: Luanda, (whatever they call) Brazzaville, Leopoldville, etc.

body armor - as no time frame required, I assumed that body armor would show up a decade earlier as OTL. In addition you don't need occupationtroops for your colonial empire (there they will be called differently - Policeforces, Schutztruppen), but for the whole territory in eastern Europe (France maybe) you need someone to keep down insurrections... (thats why I develop body amor earlier - large amount of troops in semi hostile environment - Afghanistan/Iraq IOTL)

I'm not disagreeing on a need for it. It's just that I don't think the demand was any less in real life than it would be in this world. We had two superpowers at each others' throats pumping a ton of cash into their militaries, and we still didn't get body armour worth wearing regularly until the 1980s.

What technical proficiencies the Germans would have to circumvent that they didn't have in real life continue to elude me.
 

Garrison

Donor
If one allows that there are other major states in the world, even ones that are nominal allies, then the 'A' rocket program will probably go ahead, even if there aren't having a class of weapons you can launch at rebellious colonies from the safety of the Reich can't hurt. Next prgression after the A4(V2) was supposed to be the A9/A10
 
There was a rifle that was actually called the StG-45 which is generally thought to be the direct descendant of the G3. It's very possible that a rifle either LIKE the G3 or fairly identical to it would come out of a Nazi-controlled Germany.

Since the Nazi version of the G3 would probably be chambered for 7.92 Kurz, wouldn't it technically be a Nazi HK33?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Since the Nazi version of the G3 would probably be chambered for 7.92 Kurz, wouldn't it technically be a Nazi HK33?
Well, we weren't using 7.62mm NATO rounds during WWII, but they became the most widely used rounds in the Western world.

That being said...the 7.92mm round is a big manstopper, really the closest thing in concept to what the NATO round ended up being.

Also, the HK33 was mainly chambered for the 5.56 NATO intermediate round, and it was a natural evolution of the G3.

I honestly don't think they'd use an intermediate round. That would seem to indicate American influence: an influence which was there due to Cold War politics that wouldn't be present in this world.

European designs tend toward large caliber battle rifles, and that calls for something like the 7.62 NATO long round or the 7.92 Mauser.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
And if you have a fleet operating far from large airbases, you need carriers to protect the other ships. and to launch strikes further inland.

Germany has a lot of places for land bases, and ships can reach Madagascar without leaving the easy range of land based planes. I would think Germany would have a few carriers for national pride (2-4), but would use land base aviation to support the fleet. On this item, i think the Soviet Navy/Naval Air forces are a better guide. I think Germany would also build a few pride battleship because everyone else has them, and their appears to be no Pacific war to absolutely prove BB are obsolete. Say hello some totally impractical 20" gunned BB. Right after the war, they start with diesel/electric U-boats intended to operate under water, not at the surface. These will be replaced by nuclear power ships to a large degree once the technology is developed. The supply lines will need escort ships, so there should be task force structure built around a cruiser and long-range escort ships (ASW).

There is also a need for lots of shallow drafting, cheap vessels to control the coast line and rivers that can provide fire support, move troops and move supplies. For some area like Indonesia, Congo River Basin, they are a must have.

And helicopters will get a big push because it will just be too expensive to build roads/railroads need to support armor forces.

And you will have a two tier military structure for land forces even though they may pretend they don't. The Nazi need heavy forces designed to fight a first rate power that will basically sit around and train. They also need light, mobile forces designed to fight opponents in low population density areas who only have man portable weapons. It would be much like what the USA had in Vietnam, except the colonial wars will never end, so over time, their will effectively be two different Nazi armies.

I wonder if Nazi racial view might migrate after Hitler death to where Germans (Aryans) are in the elite heavy units, and lesser races (Romanians, Slavs) are drafted into the light units taking constant casualties. Much like the pre WW1 Colonial forces, but replace the black NCO and enlisted with lesser white races.


BTW, what year does Hitler die or become so ill he is no longer controlling the country?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Not to be flippant but...

Like America, Germany's Achilles Heel might end up being that it is so preoccupied with building weapons for a war which is too big to happen that it ends up losing the war it's actually IS fighting.

Excellent point. This is a very likely.

In the role of the Admiral-in-Charge, I will tend to assume we fight the USA/UK and the same time, so I will be asking for an absolutely huge fleet. Basically the UK pre-WW1 position of a two fleet standard, but reverse. And their will be merit to the standard because if we just match the USA Navy, Sea Lion could easily be impossible again. And these ships such as large carriers, 18" Battleships, and the like are just ego driven things the Nazi love to build. I will also ask for cruiser and amphibious ships that will be useful in the colonial wars, but I probably build so many capital ships, there is an actual shortage of the small ships needed.

Now to head of Luftwaffe. I will first want a strategic bomber force that can reach the USA. If the Naval air service is under my command, I will want large planes to carry guide missile to attack the American Navy. And of course, the best jet fighters in the world. Easy to maintain CAS for Africa is my last concern. You get WW2 surplus items.

Now to the Army. Large powerful panzer corps with new tanks that take advantage of the lesson of WW2. Huge amounts of rocket based artillery and tube artillery. Airborne forces needed to invade the UK. Large training budget. I too might send old WW2 surplus to the colonial units. And why not use Italians soldiers, they suck so much the practice would help them a lot. ;)

 

The Sandman

Banned
Standard tactics are likely to involve sending in expendable troops first. Surviving Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Byelorussians, Serbs, Czechs and so forth who've joined up because as bad as their military lives are it still involves better food and living conditions than slavery in the new German factories and farms built on the ruins of their erstwhile nations. Actual Germans get sent in either to give green troops some combat experience or when dealing with the local rebels requires more and better weaponry than what they'd be willing to give to Untermenschen.

There'd probably also be a second tier of non-German troop quality, composed of all those who aren't racially pure enough to be treated as honorary Germans but who are also ranked more highly than the Slavs. The French, Spanish, Portugese, Walloons, non-German Swiss, Hungarians, Croats, and maybe Romanians and Slovaks would be placed here. Assuming I'm reading the map correctly, Bulgaria, Italy and Finland aren't de jure German puppets, so they probably become tier 2.5, higher than the second-class races since they're still at least nominally independent, but lower than proper Germans.

Then you finally get to the actual German troops, which would probably include the Dutch, Flemish, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes along with ethnic Germans. These get the best gear and training, and are probably the ones who'd be preparing for an eventual war against Japan or the Anglo-American alliance.

Assuming they aren't manufacturing completely different models of equipment for the various tiers, the vast majority of German gear is going to have a bunch of different versions depending on who's going to use it, with sharp distinctions in features and quality between said versions.
 
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