If the July 20th Plot Had Succeeded...

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Had it succeeded, surely that wouldn't be the case with Rommel as the public face of the coup...

Rommel was not going to be the public face of the coup. He knew about it in a general way, but had no actual role. It's not even clear that he would have supported the assassination of Hitler; it would have clashed with his personal sense of honor.

In any case, a great deal of Rommel's reputation was generated postwar. He was respected as a commander, but his credit as a "decent" man was much less (and not entirely deserved - in 1940, his 7th Panzer Division murdered black French colonial troops who surrendered). He was a complete toady to Hitler for years - he commanded Hitler's personal bodyguard in 1938-1939.

It's hard to realize now just how intense the hostility and fear toward Germany was at the time; one has to read a lot of contemporary discourse. Look up the Morgenthau Plan, or the works of British diplomat Robert Vansittart. There wre public suggestions that Germany should be quarantined from the rest of the world for the next hundred years, subjected to strict population controls, or stripped of all modern industry. Or that the German language should be banned and all Germans re-educated in Esperanto or some such.

The very mildest proposals demanded the extirpation of "Prussianism", considered the basis of both German military prowess and Germany's repeated military aggression. Rommel was an icon of the German army, and thus firmly associated with "Prussianism".

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by Rich Rostrom

It's hard to realize now just how intense the hostility and fear toward Germany was at the time; one has to read a lot of contemporary discourse. Look up the Morgenthau Plan, or the works of British diplomat Robert Vansittart. There wre public suggestions that Germany should be quarantined from the rest of the world for the next hundred years, subjected to strict population controls, or stripped of all modern industry. Or that the German language should be banned and all Germans re-educated in Esperanto or some such.

Even FDR mused about mass-sterilization of the Germans so as to prevent them causing a third World War.

[Johnrankins]

Another reason I think there was a demand for unconditional surrender was the "stab in the back" myth in Germany after WWI. The Allies wanted to make it crystal clear to the German public that Germany was completely whipped and the army itself was responsible not some conspiracy among the civilian population.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

Another reason I think there was a demand for unconditional surrender was the "stab in the back" myth in Germany after WWI. The Allies wanted to make it crystal clear to the German public that Germany was completely whipped and the army itself was responsible not some conspiracy among the civilian population.

This, had Hitler been blown up leading to a rapid German collapse, then despite all the evidence to the contrary Nazi diehards would be claiming that if Hitler had lived he would have masterminded some military masterstroke and driven the Allies back into the sea. Germany had to be utterly beaten and stomped down so hard that any thought of revenge would be purged from the national psyche.

[Stolengood]

...so, it wouldn't have accomplished anything, then, save a few more dead Nazis a year or so earlier?

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

...so, it wouldn't have accomplished anything, then, save a few more dead Nazis a year or so earlier?

It depends, if there is a lot of in-fighting among the Nazis the war could end months earlier. That would save millions of lives.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

Even FDR mused about mass-sterilization of the Germans so as to prevent them causing a third World War.

Really? Do you have a reference to this?

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by Cook

Really? Do you have a reference to this?

I remember reading it in a Morgenthau biography I've got lying around somewhere.

[nbcman]

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

I remember reading it in a Morgenthau biography I've got lying around somewhere.

It was in a book 'Germany Must Perish!' by Theodore Kaufmann in 1941.

[Stolengood]

People thought eugenics solved every problem, back then...

[Sean Mulligan]

Originally Posted by jmc247

I am well aware of that. The UK went to war to protect the Independence of Poland and by the time Stalin had broken his agreement with the Western Allies to do so in Churchill's mind I am sure he no longer felt the UK was morally obliged to follow up on its end of any agreements unless he felt military and political necessity dictates he has to. But, Realpolitik as you call it made certain that because FDR was very sick in early 1945 and unwilling to back a long term commitment to protecting central Europe that he had to make do with the situation he had on hand.

How had Stalin broken the agreement on Polish independence, especially by July 20 1944. The Soviets were only trying to restore the British proposed Curzon Line. Later, at Yalta Stalin, compromised with the West by allowing members of the London Polish government in exile to join the new government coalition.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

I remember reading it in a Morgenthau biography I've got lying around somewhere.

Morgenthau advocated dismantling Germany’s industry. Roosevelt was never keen on the idea and at no stage was it the preferred position of the US government.

Roosevelt at Tehran proposed dismantling Germany politicly, back into its constituent principalities, suggesting anything up to forty successor states to the Reich. He had very fond memories of Germany from travelling there before WW1.

[Adler17]

Guderian was member of the resistance, at least according to the biography of Kenneth Macksey. Anyway, why the hell should he act and attack the new government once the old one was killed?

To say Rommel was only a decent general is IMO wrong. He lead the famous Ghost Division in France and was only beaten in Africa because he did not get the supplies he needed. Monty is the most overrated British officer in ww2.

FDR was supporting Morgenthau. He hated Germany. The only hope for Germany in this situation was ironically Churchill. He hated Stalin as well. On the other hand Stalin was willing to negotiate a seperate peace several times and might do so again.

Adler

[Grimm Reaper]

The scribbling by Kaufmann certainly did not play a role in the planning of FDR or anyone in his administration. Just because the Nazis would clutch at any item that might be useful for their own lies...

[Adler17]

Well, not the Kaufmann plan. But the Morgenthau plan, which was indeed official policy (at least in secrecy). And this plan was only slightly better. It still had led to a genocide on Germans. No, there were no white knights in ww2. All sides had blood on their hands. Some more than others.

Adler

[RousseauX]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

The July 20th plotters had zero popular support in the army, the police, the officer corps or the government; nor the people for that matter either... their whole show of popular force was a shitty militia acting on false pre-approved hitler orders

they and their whole planning apparatus was the biggest pile of moron ever assembled

Basically this: the incompetence of the coupers were amazing: they failed even in the basic task of securing the telephone exchange or the radio station, or even just cutting off the phone line from Goebbel's office.

[RousseauX]

Originally Posted by Adler17

If it succeeded, Operation Walküre had been eliminated Göring, Goebbels and Himmler as well. It wasn't just another plot to get rid of Hitler, but the whole government. There would be no Göring nor Himmler nor Goebbels. They would have been either dead or captured.

The second point is, that a civil war would have been very, very unlikely. Who should do so? The main Nazis were captured, the Ersatzheer in charge of Germany and the occupied areas. The SS would be headless and soon either disarmed or under control of the Wehrmacht. Furthermore, the German soldiers were in no way making a civil war when an enemy was at the gates of Germany. The chain of command would hold. Only now Gfm. Erwin v. Witzleben was supreme commander and no "Gröfaz".

I outright think that their plan to "capture everybody" was not workable because of how bad the coupsts were at coups. There are also a large number of people you need to capture that extend far beyond the immediate top leadership (if you get rid of Himmler, what about Kaltenbrunner, or if you get him his lieutenants?).

But the army isn't really as good a match for the internal security apparatus as their firepower would suggest. The reason is the army isn't very good at fighting the sort of political battle/coup/counter-coup that's needed for the plotters to gain and stay in power when their own legitimacy is in doubt. And unless you really think the plotters are going to arrest most pro-Nazi people above the rank of Generaloberst and SS-gruppenfurher there are lots and lots of people who want them out of power.

Compounding that is the fact you really do need the loyalty of most mid-ranking people in both the security apparatus and the party since well, you can't run the country without them.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Adler17

Guderian was member of the resistance, at least according to the biography of Kenneth Macksey. Anyway, why the hell should he act and attack the new government once the old one was killed?

To say Rommel was only a decent general is IMO wrong. He lead the famous Ghost Division in France and was only beaten in Africa because he did not get the supplies he needed. Monty is the most overrated British officer in ww2.

FDR was supporting Morgenthau. He hated Germany. The only hope for Germany in this situation was ironically Churchill. He hated Stalin as well. On the other hand Stalin was willing to negotiate a seperate peace several times and might do so again.

Adler

Macksay uses the flawed sources to respin that notion

and the reason for guderian to attack the new government is obvious... it's ringleader is beck.... in terms of personal danger to guderian, it might as well be lead by stalin or zhukov; Guderian would not only be losing his powerful position (since beck would never ever keep him in the government) but he would be a high priority purge target (or at least he should have been).... you can't leave a hardcore nazi with his own security forces rolling around berlin like that; especially one who is an avowed enemy of the leadership of the plotters (beck treskow, and kluge if he ultimately joined where guderian's 3 biggest enemies in the entire country... killing them would be and was something guderian wanted to do under normal circumstances)

[Grimm Reaper]

Adler17, this was never a government plan in the first place but the angry diatribe of a private citizen who had nothing to do with the government.

It could not lead to genocide or any other action since it did not exist in the minds of FDR or his people in the first place.

[Adler17]

At first you, Blair Witch, severely underestimate the German command chain. Only that someone dislikes the other does not neccessarily means he is acting against him. Even a productive collaboration is possible. It is near to ASB that Guderian acted like you tell here. Especially as a war was going on.

Grimm Reaper, during the second Quebec conference in 1944 Churchill and Roosevelt secretly agreed to make that an official policy. Only the outcry, when it became public forced Roosevelt to deny the plan, which would have caused up to 20-40 millions Germans dying of starvation (a long time feeding of them would not be possible).

Adler