AHC: Confederate nostalgia considered unacceptable

[JoeMulk]

How could you get a timeline where confederate nostalgia and displaying the confederate flag was considered as unacceptable as nazi nostalgia and displaying the swastika is in Germany?

[Wolfpaw]

Don't allow for the Lost Causers to dominate the historiography of the Civil War and thereby giving an air of noble respectability to a clutch of treacherous slavocrats.

[revolutionincyberspace]

Originally Posted by JoeMulk

How could you get a timeline where confederate nostalgia and displaying the confederate flag was considered as unacceptable as nazi nostalgia and displaying the swastika is in Germany?

Isn't TL-191 basically that?

Also, I'd say the CSA has a nasty race war post-independence and then the US conquers everything in former CSA. You could see a Yugoslavia analogue with the black population considering the CSA symbols the same way Serbs consider fascist croat symbols. Granted the white population would still be more ambivalent towards it. It'd be basically a more exxtreme version from OTL

[Ace Venom]

It's pretty simple. Have the Federal government consider the display of Confederate symbols a crime following the ACW. It would have also made a dent if all Confederate politicians and officers were executed for treason and anyone who continued to support the Confederacy after the war would have been considered a traitor. The Federal government could have also ruled that Confederate veterans would be ineligible to ever receive pensions because they fought against their country. Then the Federal government could have stepped in and banned any Confederate veterans organizations. It's a bit harsh, but I think it would have sent the message.

[Wendell]

Have Booth's full plot come off. The Radical Republicans take a much tougher line toward the South, and effectively ban Confederate nostalgia among other things.

[whitecrow]

Originally Posted by Ace Venom

It's pretty simple. Have the Federal government consider the display of Confederate symbols a crime following the ACW. It would have also made a dent if all Confederate politicians and officers were executed for treason and anyone who continued to support the Confederacy after the war would have been considered a traitor. The Federal government could have also ruled that Confederate veterans would be ineligible to ever receive pensions because they fought against their country. Then the Federal government could have stepped in and banned any Confederate veterans organizations. It's a bit harsh, but I think it would have sent the message.

Wouldn't that lead to more civil unrest post war? Possibly resulting in more trouble down the line?

[SergeantHeretic]

You want to make the display of the stars and bars and Confederate Nostalgia be frowned on and disaproved of?

Simple, as another poster said, don't let the lost causers have free reign post war but that's not going to be enough, you need to make a lot more hay out of Southron atrocities and seriously minimize the northern ones.

But that still won't be enough, you have you makethe North a great deal more liberal and open toward african americans than it actually was and have more officers like Colonel RObert Gould Shaw and fewer contraband units.

In othe words make the Regiments of Colored Troops for the most part properly trained and decently treated, like the 54th, not ragamuffin troops like the glorified slaves of men mlike theJayhawkers.

Mass executions down south for colored POW's would go a long way toward making COnfederate nostalgia a really odiious thing.

[GeorgeUK]

Alternatively, have the North win the war a lot quicker.

This happens in "The Union Forever". Lincoln doesn't get assassinated, is able to rebuild the South, and the author hinted at Jefferson Davis "writing a lament on the folly of secession" or something along those lines.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by GeorgeUK

Alternatively, have the North win the war a lot quicker.

This happens in "The Union Forever". Lincoln doesn't get assassinated, is able to rebuild the South, and the author hinted at Jefferson Davis "writing a lament on the folly of secession" or something along those lines.

Interesting, I'l have to look that up.

What I always found interesting is that President Lincoln never planned on forcing the issue of slavery.

But the paranoia on the part of the Seccesion movement literally created the seccesion crisis, despite Lincoln's statement that, and I wuote,

"If I can restore the Union by freeing the slaves then free they will be, but if I can secure the Union by leaving slavery intact, then in their chains they shall remain."

[Sean Mulligan]

Originally Posted by Ace Venom

It's pretty simple. Have the Federal government consider the display of Confederate symbols a crime following the ACW. It would have also made a dent if all Confederate politicians and officers were executed for treason and anyone who continued to support the Confederacy after the war would have been considered a traitor. The Federal government could have also ruled that Confederate veterans would be ineligible to ever receive pensions because they fought against their country. Then the Federal government could have stepped in and banned any Confederate veterans organizations. It's a bit harsh, but I think it would have sent the message.

Killing the officers of the Army of Northern Virginia would violate Grants terms of surrender.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Sean Mulligan

Killing the officers of the Army of Northern Virginia would violate Grants terms of surrender.

Yes, it would and the point is to make the CONFEDERATE forces look like crap not the other way around.

[Snake Featherston]

Have the Civil War end earlier with an inglorious Confederate defeat.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

You want to make the display of the stars and bars and Confederate Nostalgia be frowned on and disaproved of?

Simple, as another poster said, don't let the lost causers have free reign post war but that's not going to be enough, you need to make a lot more hay out of Southron atrocities and seriously minimize the northern ones.

But that still won't be enough, you have you makethe North a great deal more liberal and open toward african americans than it actually was and have more officers like Colonel RObert Gould Shaw and fewer contraband units.

In othe words make the Regiments of Colored Troops for the most part properly trained and decently treated, like the 54th, not ragamuffin troops like the glorified slaves of men mlike theJayhawkers.

Mass executions down south for colored POW's would go a long way toward making COnfederate nostalgia a really odiious thing.

That last bit actually happened a lot in the Civil War. To really avert the Lost Cause, as the CS Army was a morally bankrupt bunch of murderous thugs IOTL, you need the war to end very much sooner than it did.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

That last bit actually happened a lot in the Civil War. To really avert the Lost Cause, as the CS Army was a morally bankrupt bunch of murderous thugs IOTL, you need the war to end very much sooner than it did.

Yeah, I didn't know about the last bit, really? they really did that?

Holy crap.

I always knew the "The War was for States rights" crap was as General John Berringer would say "A load of shit".

If they were fightring for "States Rights" what were they doing sending bands of murdering thugs into Kanas and Missouri to make sure those States voted to approve slavery?

Even today the cry of "States rights" is made a hollow sham by out os state political action gangs being sent into states voting or consideringvoting in favor or gay marriage to make sure they vote the "Right" Way.

States rights my aunt fanny, these backward bullying thugs want the right to opress and abuse and bully people and they're darned if they want to be told it's wrong.

[Jello_Biafra]

Make the rewards for compliance significant, and the penalties for resistance harsh.

Give the elites a narrative that strengthens their position, but requires them to make a break with the legacy of Confederacy.

That's pretty much the key to pushing through ideological change in any state superstructure, and can be cross-applied just about anywhere. If removing the superstructure is not feasible, it must be co-opted.

Reconstruction sought to remove the superstructure, but was not applied as thoroughly or as long as necessary. But even then, a restructuring of the Southern ideological superstructure was not impossible.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Jello_Biafra

Make the rewards for compliance significant, and the penalties for resistance harsh.

Give the elites a narrative that strengthens their position, but requires them to make a break with the legacy of Confederacy.

That's pretty much the key to pushing through ideological change in any state superstructure, and can be cross-applied just about anywhere. If removing the superstructure is not feasible, it must be co-opted.

Reconstruction sought to remove the superstructure, but was not applied as thoroughly or as long as necessary. But even then, a restructuring of the Southern ideological superstructure was not impossible.

Prevent the rise of the DixieCrats!

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by SergeantHeretic

Yeah, I didn't know about the last bit, really? they really did that?

Holy crap.

I always knew the "The War was for States rights" crap was as General John Berringer would say "A load of shit".

If they were fightring for "States Rights" what were they doing sending bands of murdering thugs into Kanas and Missouri to make sure those States voted to approve slavery?

Even today the cry of "States rights" is made a hollow sham by out os state political action gangs being sent into states voting or consideringvoting in favor or gay marriage to make sure they vote the "Right" Way.

States rights my aunt fanny, these backward bullying thugs want the right to opress and abuse and bully people and they're darned if they want to be told it's wrong.

Yes. Fort Pillow is just the most notorious instance. The largest was in the Battle of the Crater, conducted by Lee's army.

[SergeantHeretic]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Yes. Fort Pillow is just the most notorious instance. The largest was in the Battle of the Crater, conducted by Lee's army.

SO much for the legend of "Gentleman General Lee.

[PhilippeO]

Can this be done with POD after 1950 ? refusal of southern white to serve with black troops in Korea ? longer and more violent opposition to civil rights movement ? anti-segregation activist managed to kill President or commit mcveigh scale attack ? Dixiecrat success led to establishment of third party that popular in South only ?

[thekingsguard]

1) Stop the romantiscation of Southern culture, like Gone With the Wind

2) Eliminate the Lost Cause folks from writing Civil War histories