AHC and WI: Syracuse, Democratic Superpower

First (with no PoDs earlier than the Peace of Nicias), how can Athens avoid the Sicilian Expedition? Then, with this as the PoD, what else needs to happen for democracy in Syracuse to survive for at least another 60 years (preferably longer)?

Finally, how would the Ancient Mediterranean world be changed? Can Syracuse remain the hegemon of Sicily, and potentially even unite the island? And what of Athens -- if Sicily doesn't end the Peace of Nicias, can the treaty really determine the balance of power for the 50 years it was meant to? If not, could Athens gain the upper hand?

It's been a while since I read on this, but it seems as though Athens could have just left it alone had they chosen to do so.

John Fredrick Parker said:

First (with no PoDs earlier than the Peace of Nicias), how can Athens avoid the Sicilian Expedition? Then, with this as the PoD, what else needs to happen for democracy in Syracuse to survive for at least another 60 years (preferably longer)?

Finally, how would the Ancient Mediterranean world be changed? Can Syracuse remain the hegemon of Sicily, and potentially even unite the island? And what of Athens -- if Sicily doesn't end the Peace of Nicias, can the treaty really determine the balance of power for the 50 years it was meant to? If not, could Athens gain the upper hand?

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The Peace of Nicias was doomed anyway. Athenian troops had already been advancing with Argos and meeting the Spartans in battle, IIRC. The Spartans let the Athenians go to preserve pro-Spartan sentiment, but the peace was regardless doomed.

I know that one PoD for changing the Sicilian expedition is avoiding Nicias blabbering about how it wouldn't be effective. He argued that it would have to be much larger to truly work, in an attempt to get it cancelled, with the result that the force was escalated from 60 to nearly two hundred. As a point of reference, previous taskforces of similar size had bent sent to Syracuse, and left safely. Without the need to batter through all resistance, without a need to escalate the goals in an ill-planned manner, it wouldn't have been a disaster.

CandyDragon said:

I know that one PoD for changing the Sicilian expedition is avoiding Nicias blabbering about how it wouldn't be effective. He argued that it would have to be much larger to truly work, in an attempt to get it cancelled, with the result that the force was escalated from 60 to nearly two hundred. As a point of reference, previous taskforces of similar size had bent sent to Syracuse, and left safely. Without the need to batter through all resistance, without a need to escalate the goals in an ill-planned manner, it wouldn't have been a disaster.

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Would this have been better for the city of Syracuse itself as well? (Remember, one of my big interests is keeping the city a democracy)

John Fredrick Parker said:

Would this have been better for the city of Syracuse itself as well? (Remember, one of my big interests is keeping the city a democracy)

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I believe the democracy took a hit during the siege, as the number of generals went from 15, I believe, to just three, and those lost accountability to the Assembly. Honestly though, I can't quite remember the effects of the expedition upon the overall stability of Syracuse afterwards. I'll see if I can dig a book up with the information.

CandyDragon said:

I believe the democracy took a hit during the siege, as the number of generals went from 15, I believe, to just three, and those lost accountability to the Assembly. Honestly though, I can't quite remember the effects of the expedition upon the overall stability of Syracuse afterwards. I'll see if I can dig a book up with the information.

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I know Dionysius I established himself circa 405, but I've also read accounts saying Syracuse Democracy ran from 466-412; either way, I've been primarily inferring the relationship to the Sicilian Expedition, so I wouldn't rule out being wrong here...

CandyDragon said:

The Peace of Nicias was doomed anyway. Athenian troops had already been advancing with Argos and meeting the Spartans in battle, IIRC. The Spartans let the Athenians go to preserve pro-Spartan sentiment, but the peace was regardless doomed.

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That's fine; if there is a renewed conflict, I'm still partial to seeing Athens come out on top -- or at least be no worse off than they were after Nicias...

I came with a solution in my Space Bat - hated Continuous Democracy / Athenswank. It's to have an invitation be extended by the Delian League / Athenian Empire instead of invasion.

Please, feel free to use it - I'm a sharing guy, and my TL seems likely stalled anyway until the era of the Space Bat ends.

I tend to think that avoiding the Sicilian Expedition oughtta be enough to keep democracy alive. After all, you need antidemocracy amongst elites for a coup to work.

'Course, they'd be a lesser (if still great) power than Athens that way, unless you have Athens lose to Sparta later some other way.

They probably also had the one of the earliest useful catapults, the first really useful artillery, though there's argument when.

Syracusan democracy would need to have a string of successes to its name to last. The city has a Corinthian tradition, which means its love for involving the lower classes in decisionmaking was likely quite limited anyway. Further, the Sikeliots had an already established tradition of tyrannis which suggested quite naturally if you wanted to achieve great things, you needed a great man. If Syracuse is to stay a democracy, democracy must look better than tyrannis. Perhaps instead of fighting the Athenians, a decisive blow against Carthage to build up popular morale and support for the elected strategoi?

jkay said:

I came with a solution in my Space Bat - hated Continuous Democracy / Athenswank. It's to have an invitation be extended by the Delian League / Athenian Empire instead of invasion.

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Not bad; I look forward to seeing it resumed

carlton_bach said:

Perhaps instead of fighting the Athenians, a decisive blow against Carthage to build up popular morale and support for the elected strategoi?

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Any idea when this could be?