If HMS Indomitable was present?

[Shtudmuffin]

When Churchill had sent HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse to Singapore, he had also intended for them to be accompanied by an aircraft carrier: HMS Indomitable. However, Indomitable ran aground in the West Indies, which led to its absence. PoW and Repulse were later sunk by Japanese air attack close to Malaya. Now, suppose the Indomitable had not run aground and was fit for service in the Pacific. How would this have affected the battle? What about the Pacific theater as a whole?

[sharlin]

She would have been a primary target and her fairly small airgroup would put her at a disadvantage if the IJA sent escorts along unlike OTL when they didnt.

[Shtudmuffin]

But I don't think the Japanese were expecting to find the fleet, right? or at least not enemy aircraft. Or am I wrong in that assumption?

[Peg Leg Pom]

If she gets found she gets sunk with Repulse and Prince of Wales. On the other had with the carrier there Force Z dosn't need to be so far north to attack the invasion fleets. Whether Admiral Philips who was a firm believer in the Battleship as the offensive arm of the fleet would have taken advantage of the availability of naval strike aircraft is another question.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

But I don't think the Japanese were expecting to find the fleet, right? or at least not enemy aircraft. Or am I wrong in that assumption?

Wrong. The ships were within range of land based fighters, and the Japanese were surprised that fighters were not providing CAP for the capital ships.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Wrong. The ships were within range of land based fighters, and the Japanese were surprised that fighters were not providing CAP for the capital ships.

Yep, RAF Buffalos were sitting ready to respond to a request for air support but Phillips didnt make the call until it was too late. Taken together with Indomitable's air group they may have been able to reduce the amount of attacks on the ships but unless the Army in Malaya had got its act together what happened at sea was irrelevant.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

Yep, RAF Buffalos were sitting ready to respond to a request for air support but Phillips didnt make the call until it was too late. Taken together with Indomitable's air group they may have been able to reduce the amount of attacks on the ships but unless the Army in Malaya had got its act together what happened at sea was irrelevant.

Or a few 'Winged Whales' turn up.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Or a few 'Winged Whales' turn up.

Or HMS Glorious

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

Or HMS Glorious

It's the Final Count Down, performed live and in colour by HMS EAGLE 1968.


More seriously Admiral Phillips was the wrong man to command Force Z, he just would not believe that aircraft were a threat to Battleships at sea.

[Riain]

Indomitable was near Jamaica on Nov 3rd on her maiden voyage with the purpose of working up her crew and airgroup, perhaps if she was immediately dispatched to Singapore she could have arrived before December 8 1941, but her airgroup would not be worked up.

I believe the formation of Force Z was to occur over a period of some weeks, perhaps even months:-

Repulse was already in the Indian Ocean and was ordered to rendevous with the PoW in Ceylon.

PoW was ordered from Home Waters to Singapore on 25 October and arrived on 2 December, a voyage of 39 days. Prior to this the PoW had seen action against the Bismark and in a Malta Convoy so was shaken down more or less and had combat experience.

The cruisers HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart arrived at Singapore 3 days after PoW ad R were sunk, presumably to join Force Z. Both ships had seen action and were worked up.

Presumably, if war had not broken out, Indomitable would have joined this force in January, it could have been a reasonable detterrent.

[Grey Wolf]

Hasn't Indomitable got an armoured deck? I'd assume that the plan would be to cover the withdrawal, but if the carrier did get attacked I think it would both have a better chance of survival, and draw off the attack from the other two

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by Riain

Indomitable was near Jamaica on Nov 3rd on her maiden voyage with the purpose of working up her crew and airgroup, perhaps if she was immediately dispatched to Singapore she could have arrived before December 8 1941, but her airgroup would not be worked up.

I believe the formation of Force Z was to occur over a period of some weeks, perhaps even months:-

Repulse was already in the Indian Ocean and was ordered to rendevous with the PoW in Ceylon.

PoW was ordered from Home Waters to Singapore on 25 October and arrived on 2 December, a voyage of 39 days. Prior to this the PoW had seen action against the Bismark and in a Malta Convoy so was shaken down more or less and had combat experience.

The cruisers HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart arrived at Singapore 3 days after PoW ad R were sunk, presumably to join Force Z. Both ships had seen action and were worked up.

Presumably, if war had not broken out, Indomitable would have joined this force in January, it could have been a reasonable detterrent.

At the very least someone should have loaded some Fulmars onto Hermes in Ceylon and sent her to join up with Force Z in Singapore.

[Riain]

To do what, to get sunk by Phillips` stupidity?

[Peg Leg Pom]

The dozen or so fighters she could have carried might have made the difference that allowed the RAF Buffalos to reach them on time.

[Riain]

Maybe if Hermes was there Phillips would have used her planes for recon and found out what was what and acted accordingly, instead of blundering about like an idiot for a couple of days asking to get sunk.

[aghart]

As stated, Indomitable was nominated for service with Force Z in Singapore but was never going to be there by December 8th. Her running aground at Jamaica did not prevent her from getting to Singapore on time. She had only just arrived in the West Indies and had nearly 3 weeks work up training to complete before going to Gibraltar for replenishment and the subsequent journey to Singapore. It is important to understand that she was not actually enroute to Singapore when she was damaged.

As for Hermes? you have got to put aside the benefits of hindsight, Indomitable was going to be delayed for maybe 2 weeks in an area preparing for war but still at peace! and anyway, by the time the Navy had managed to put some Fulmars on her, HMS Indominatable would be already at Singapore!

If Indominatable had been in company with Force Z on 10th December, there are a million different outcomes, but let me state just one. In real history Force Z was spotted by a single scout plane which sent out a homing signal for the scattered Japanese strike force to follow, If a CAP from Indomitable were to shoot this one aircraft down then the battle would never have been fought! This was the only aircraft detailed to search the area of Kuantan and the result would have been the return to Saigon of the whole attacking air fleet due to lack of fuel and Force Z would have then made the safety of Singapore.

[PMN1]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

It's the Final Count Down, performed live and in colour by HMS EAGLE 1968.

And The World Turned Upside Down..........

[Riain]

Originally Posted by aghart

If Indominatable had been in company with Force Z on 10th December, there are a million different outcomes, but let me state just one. In real history Force Z was spotted by a single scout plane which sent out a homing signal for the scattered Japanese strike force to follow, If a CAP from Indomitable were to shoot this one aircraft down then the battle would never have been fought! This was the only aircraft detailed to search the area of Kuantan and the result would have been the return to Saigon of the whole attacking air fleet due to lack of fuel and Force Z would have then made the safety of Singapore.

IOTL Force Z was spotted by Submarine I65, then by 3 cruiser-launched floatplanes, the at night a cruiser-launched floatplane dropped a flare over Force Z when 5 miles away from a force of 5 IJN heavy cruisers, then spotted and attacked by submarine I58 and then Force Z was found and attacked by the land-based bombers.

This is a lot of spotting.

[aghart]

Originally Posted by Riain

IOTL Force Z was spotted by Submarine I65, then by 3 cruiser-launched floatplanes, the at night a cruiser-launched floatplane dropped a flare over Force Z when 5 miles away from a force of 5 IJN heavy cruisers, then spotted and attacked by submarine I58 and then Force Z was found and attacked by the land-based bombers.

This is a lot of spotting.

I65 did spot Force Z and as a result the invasion transports scattered north out if harms way, the floatplanes did spot Force Z but their reports did not reach Saigon and the ships were still heading north at that point. The flare was dropped by a land based twin engined Bomber/recce aircraft and it was dropped over the IJN cruiser Choaki, not Force Z. POW's surface radar was not serviceable when she left Singapore and this is why the Japanese cruisers were not picked up that night and why Force Z turned away from the flare that was spotted.

The message received from I56 was that Force Z was steaming south towards Singapore, the message that Force Z had turned to the south west did not get through so the Japanese had no idea that the british ships diverted to Kuantan. On 10th December the Japanese had absolutely no idea where the british ships were and had to search half the south China sea to find them. Lt Hoshai who found force Z was on the return leg of his search sweep and was heading north when he discovered the fleet. The Japanese strike force was spread far and wide and most were turning back to Saigon when the sighting was made. No other Japanese aircraft was tasked with searching this area. Shoot down Lt Hoshai before he can transmit and the sinking of Force Z does not happen.

[De la Tour]

To be honest, I would not want to be a pilot on Indomitable. It may take longer, but all hell was let loose of PoW and Repulse that day. I'd still bet on those ships getting sunk. Having a CV with a limited airwing will bloody the Japanese, but ultimately they were fecked.