DBWI: What If "Empire of Dying Suns" (BBC-TV) Never Aired?

Ever since its conception in 1987, the British television series Empire of Dying Suns (BBC-TV) has been praised for its depiction of a dark, dystopian empire, which featured human overlords diabolically enslaving and oppressing alien races. TV Guide said the series was "gloriously the antithesis of Star Trek..." The series aired for 8 seasons, going up against the American Star Trek: The Next Generation until 1994. Now that the series has reached its 25th anniversary, and the whole entire series can now be enjoyed on DVD, one has to ask, what would life be like without the series? What effect would it have had on the science fiction genre (e.g. world the Star Wars prequel trilogy have taken the same tone without the series?)....


OOC: This is a television series that doesn't exist. Imagine the RPG Warhammer 40K being made into a television series.

Oh I remember catching the last few seasons when it first aired. I've also heard there's another spinoff in the pipeline.

Does anyone remember that crossover with Red Dwarf they did on Red Nose Day?

Anyway back on topic, I don't think Sci-Fi would be anywhere near as popular as it is now,
especially of the Soft Science Hard Issues variety.
The British acting community today would probably be unrecognisable, think how many
people first made names for themselves on this show and its offshoots.

Criticism has tended to revolve around the relatively "hollow" catharsis of British Imperialism in the show, in particular its backhand glorification of the actions of the United Kingdom in the 19th century. This obviously had great effects on post-Imperial discourse inside the United Kingdom; from the costumed criticism of the UK's recent warmongering, through to recent British riots.

Perhaps most puzzling aspect about all this is how it got eight seasons out of the relatively cutthroat British television market. I'm certain that moving the directorial and writing staff teams about, particularly in the face of early media criticism helped. As did the infamously disturbing so-called "Sepoy" episode.

yours,
Sam R.

Even after all these years you can be sure to create a massive argument by mentioning the Sepoy Episode. I can't think of a single Star Trek episode that
1 caused so much controversy
2 single handedly created/revived a political debate

I don't think there would have been such a revival of British science fiction TV during the 90's without it. The first season premiered less than a year before the cancellation of Doctor Who, a move that was widely thought to have put the final nail in the coffin of BBC prime time sci-fi, and the second season just after, that, combined with strong sales overseas really kept the flame alive for TV fantasy and SF in the UK.

Not only did it inspire the BBC's competitors to try and create similar profitable franchises, the Gerry Anderson produced "UFO" remake for ITV or Channel Four's ambitious "Red Planet", but the BBC specifically recommissioned "Star Cops" just so they could have an SF drama to show during EoDS off season. Likewise it's well known that the refusal of the show's producers and cast to continue after the eigth season lead to the revival of Doctor Who, with Paul McGann's critically aclaimed five year run ensuring the show was back to stay, and the remake of Blake's 7 under many of the creative staff of EoDS, but it's less well documented that Channel 5's "Doomwatch" revival probably wouldn't have continued beyond the pilot movie without the prospect of large scale international sales.

Mr_ Bondoc said:

TV Guide said the series was "gloriously the antithesis of Star Trek..." The series aired for 8 seasons, going up against the American Star Trek: The Next Generation until 1994.

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That TV Guide quote makes me laugh. One of the major complaints about TNG's final seasons was about how the show was turning into a clone of Empire, especially the Cardassian War arc.

Some Bloke said:

Even after all these years you can be sure to create a massive argument by mentioning the Sepoy Episode. I can't think of a single Star Trek episode that
1 caused so much controversy
2 single handedly created/revived a political debate

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That's because Trek, even in the later TNG years, still followed Roddenberry's idealistic vision of a rather egalitarian future. Its hard to create a controversy when you simply state "poverty, famine, disease, and war have been eliminated" without going into the details of how that came about. Empire specifically tackled those issues, especially the Sepoy ep.

wolf_brother said:

That's because Trek, even in the later TNG years, still followed Roddenberry's idealistic vision of a rather egalitarian future.

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And it's a good job it did. EoDS was good but it was also grim, sometimes too grim. Many people criticize TNG's first season for being boring over talky but EoDS first season picked up it's own share of flak for being really bloody depressing in places. Fortunately TNG's success showed that there was room for both types of sci-fi on TV. Grim and gritty and softer and lighter without sacrificing serious story telling just for the sake of appealing to a narrow demographic.

mrsandman said:

Don't know, isn't President Franken an empire fan? Without it who knows he may have become a completelly different person.

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OOC: Everyone is looking at you now and thinking, "Nice little double blind about a TV show and he decides he's going to take it off in some implausible political direction". I mean seriously, do you really think any of us would accept that a TV show is going to change history so much that it can make Al Franken president out of nowhere?

Landshark said:

OOC: Everyone is looking at you now and thinking, "Nice little double blind about a TV show and he decides he's going to take it off in some implausible political direction". I mean seriously, do you really think any of us would accept that a TV show is going to change history so much that it can make Al Franken president out of nowhere?

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((Fine, fine I will delete my post calm down. ))

You have to love those Gilliam special effects. I know some of the ground battle scenes have aged terribly (matte paintings of a battlefield, maybe with some superimposed pyrotechnics or smoke, not exactly Helms Deep), but he did an epic job on the space battles. And at least they made an attempt at showing us this stuff. No EoDS, maybe Gilliam doesn't get to make A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, or Watchmen? Or maybe he gets to make some of his other projects?

And I actually love the 'overacting'. You have to think of it as theatrical, they aren't overacting at all.

Maybe we'd never have had the Doctor Who hiatus? They seemed to make that show more light-hearted and child friendly in response to EoDS' darker tone. I think losing the whole family audience might have been the end of it.

The paodies Farscape had about Empire was alone worth watching it. I heard one of the Empire expanded universe novels included a few refrences in return, can anyone confirm that?

Mr_ Bondoc said:

Ever since its conception in 1987, the British television series Empire of Dying Suns (BBC-TV) has been praised for its depiction of a dark, dystopian empire, which featured human overlords diabolically enslaving and oppressing alien races. TV Guide said the series was "gloriously the antithesis of Star Trek..." The series aired for 8 seasons, going up against the American Star Trek: The Next Generation until 1994. Now that the series has reached its 25th anniversary, and the whole entire series can now be enjoyed on DVD, one has to ask, what would life be like without the series? What effect would it have had on the science fiction genre (e.g. world the Star Wars prequel trilogy have taken the same tone without the series?)....


OOC: This is a television series that doesn't exist. Imagine the RPG Warhammer 40K being made into a television series.

Click to expand...

I actually prefered "Empire" to Star Trek, mostly because nothing in it was sugar coated. And my has a largish collection of books on military history (not to mention that his favourite film is Zulu...), so either while watching the show, or later on (sometimes years later) when I read something in one of the book, what was depicted in the show stopped being far fetched, mostly because something like it had really happened. When you think about it, the Empire was more, well, human than anything in Star Trek ever was.

As for other sci-fi that was influenced by it, well if something like Mass Effect ever aired (the yanks still cut good parts out of it, mostly because they are prudes), it would probably have to upend something else, like Star Trek. (I'm not saying that it doesn't, but it'd be more blatant.) Having the militaristic, slave loving empire (for those who haven't seen the show, they are called Batarians) both constrained by a galactic UN (who kicked them out because they were that unpleasant) and get kicked in the teeth by humanity in their first encounter (and again and again afterwards) was a different take on the approach. (What happens to assholes when their neighbours are as tough as they are?) Mind you, the gritty darkness inspired by "Empire" leaves me worried as to how the series (now in season 5) is going to end now that the apocalyptic invasion has finally come. Maybe Canwest will have the balls to kill everyone. (Or worse, the show does have some Lovecraftian themes...) Or not, we'll see next year and there is still a season and a half left.

I'm sorry but as a Doctor Who fan this notion that it owes some sort of debt to 'Empire of the Endless Monologues' really grates. First off its 'success' was used to justify the so-called 'hiatus' that took DW off the air for nearly a decade, that's a cancellation in anyone's books. And of course when we complained the answer was always 'you've still got Empires what are you complaining about?'
Then when it finally gets back on air the co-production with 'Sci-Fi Channel' led to wholesale Americanisation of the show, a flying K-9, the doctor getting 'involved' with his assistant? Granted McGann was good but his successors? The final insult was when John Barrowman took over as the Doctor and they had him use an American accent!

I liked it but I could never really get into it, it was just too dark. like when Turner was forced to resign as captain of the Victory when the admiralty found out he was Homosexual. Or when they used gas on those poor rebels. Or used mechas to break up the strikers in 'Justice'

Honestly I kind of understand why they americanized Doctor Who I mean theres only so much darkness you can take.

But having the doctor marry Rose was just way over the top, and kind of messed up I mean he's what 40 times her age? sorry for derailing the thread but come on!

deathscompanion1 said:

I liked it but I could never really get into it, it was just too dark. like when Turner was forced to resign as captain of the Victory when the admiralty found out he was Homosexual. Or when they used gas on thoes poor rebels. Or used mechas to break up the strikers in 'Justice'!

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You take a very slanted view, if you remember those 'poor rebels' were armed and supplied by the Batarians and the strikers were actually breaking Galactic Convention Article 33 by striking during wartime, hence the episodes name 'Justice'. But yeah, was a shame about Turner though, I was really hoping it was a setup by his First Officer. After all, it was obvious that Beatty wanted command of the Victory and he was a devious bastard, not too mention a poor officer with highly placed connections. Couldn't believe how he lead the fleet into that obvious trap in 'Gauntlet'. Still, the battle scene where the Victory and the remains of 1st fleet are saved by the Pegasus and 3rd Carrier fleet is to my mind one of the best examples of special effects pre Babylon 5.

I always liked the simplicity of EoDS, unlike Star Trek where they had to endlessly talk it through and come up with some highly improbable solution that made everyone happy....cause thats soooo RL The Empire took a simpler view, you're either with us or against us. If you're with us, we'll try to minimise casualties, but bad things happen to good people, if you're against us, we frag your world, your family, your friends and your frikking dog too

Speaking of Doctor Who, what do we make of the news that Idris Elba will be the Tenth Doctor? Richard Armitage's two seasons were certainly memorable. Rumour has it Armitage is off to replace Rupert Penry-Jones as Bond ...

EDIT : Yeah RCAF, Mass Effect is a good show, it's on Channel 4 here. Funnily enough so many people don't realize that Dominic West is British.



OOC : Probably superfluous clarification : ITTL, Dominic West plays Shepard in Mass Effect, which ITTL is a TV show.

deathscompanion1 said:

I liked it but I could never really get into it, it was just too dark. like when Turner was forced to resign as captain of the Victory when the admiralty found out he was Homosexual. Or when they used gas on thoes poor rebels. Or used mechas to break up the strikers in 'Justice'

Honestly I kind of understand why they americanized Doctor Who I mean theirs only so much darkness you can take.

But having the docter marry rose was just way over the top, and kind of messed up I mean he's what 40 times her age? sorry for derailing the thread but come on!

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Well when 'Empires' first ran in the US Turner basically disappears without explanation thanks to some heavy handed editing, I suppose the debate that caused is a positive result but I always felt they just did it in the first place to push some buttons.

Of course now the 'Empies' are up in arms about the proposed US remake of the show with the suggestion that they want to lighten the tone, a 'glossy reboot' as the Americans like to call it. Frankly if it goes ahead I'll just be kicking back and laughing.

I always thought that Gauntlet was a wasted oppurtunity.

What with never fully showing the aftermath of the Empire's premier battle fleet being all but wiped out. And Beatty's sudden change of heart and redemption by ramming the Enemy flag ship so the rest of the fleet could escape always seemed a little cheap. I mean the first 4 seasons showed that he was a cowardly treacherous douchebag and all of a sudden he's a hero.

Personally I think that it was written in at the last moment to avoid a law suit.

deathscompanion1 said:

I always thought that Gauntlet was a wasted oppurtunity.

What with never fully showing the aftermath of the Empire's premier battle fleet being all but wiped out. And Beatty's sudden change of heart and redemption by ramming the Enemy flag ship so the rest of the fleet could escape always seemed a little cheap. I mean the first 4 seasons showed that he was a cowardly treacherous douchebag and all of a sudden he's a hero.

Personally I think that it was written in at the last moment to avoid a law suit.

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Yeah, that was one of the few episodes I didn't like. Still, EoDS had far more great episodes than bad ones - 16:1 IIRC.

Overall, I'd say that the show worked for two primary reasons:

1) Realism. All the tech - with a few exceptions - and most of the scenarios could be related to events either happening or had happened here on Terra Firma. You could watch it and say: "This looks real."

2) Took the audience seriously. They producers treated the audience like mature adults, and so the audience - for the most part - were serious and mature about the show.

IMHO, the only US based shows that repeated this were Babylon 5 - at least in the first three and-a-half-seasons - and Batman: The Animated Series.