Why is it that there are so few Timelines involving South America on here? Or heck, why are there so few AHC's or suggested POD for the continent? Is it just a generally assumed belief that no matter what happens in it, events there will have little impact anywhere else? Is it just that compared to other regions of the world, their history isn't as exciting? Or is it more because we don't have many people from South America's?
Why so few SA TL's?
- Thread starter Kayin Dreemurr
- Start date
BlondieBC
Banned
Agreed.
Being from the USA, It would takes me months of study before I could propose a good SA timeline, but I can come up with hundreds of TL for WW1, civil war, WW2, and other things related to America. I lack basic knowledge like who were leaders of Brazil, what was their political policy, what was their foreign policy, etc.
Double agreed. South America's fascinating, but I suspect most members (me included) just don't know enough about it.
I remember that too, but I think at least a couple of those were by maverick.
Also, when I first saw this thread title I thought it meant Why so few South Africa TL's. We should have more of those too.
Kaiphranos
Donor
I've noticed this before as well. I think another part of the problem may be a lack of sources--you can get a lot of ideas by poking around on Wikipedia, but to explore them in depth you need to do actual research, and I've found books on South American history to be rather hard to come by. (At least ones about anything before 1950 or so, or relating to military history, which is what I tend to find most interesting to read.) Mind you, it'd probably be orders of magnitude easier if I spoke Spanish (or even Portuguese)...
BlondieBC
Banned
A lot of the source are probably not in English on the web. I ran into a source issue in my TL. It is hard for me to find information from the Ottoman or Hungarian perspective, and i assume this is because they were never translated to English. Sometimes it seems like every British Vice Admiral wrote a book, so i presume that Ottoman Generals also wrote books, but they are not translated or were not put on the web.
Another issue is impact. I am enjoying my TL because I can change so many things off one POD. If I was writing a Bolivia TL, the rest of the world might be unchanged 20 years into the TL. For example, if Bolivia actually had a coast line (lost in some war in OTL), would anything change in WW1, WW2, or the scramble for Africa. My guess is nothing major changes. I would find a TL where say Brazil was a medium size power that had influence in international affairs to be fascinating, but it is likely ASB. For example WW1 where decisive battles were fought in the swamps of Paraguay would be a fund read, but probably ASB. Or Argentina sending ships to help the Spanish in the Spanish American war.
Which is kinda sad, in a way. But understandable.
Didn't think about that, but your right
South Africa needs some love too darnit You know, whats sad, we dont even see many of them in the more modern timelines either.
Too bad we don't know any large professional historical circles that might actually be interested in doing a bunch of translating on such things.
Well, I would think in this case then it just needs the proper POD with the proper country. Doing something with Bolivia may not get much, but say with Brazil or Argentina, or perhaps Columbia.
This is reminding me of how I wanted to do a timeline on the Federal Provinces of Central America, and how the lack of information was my main problem.
I think the fact there are so few South American TLs (as well as African and Asian TLs as has been pointed out) is mainly because most members of this board are either North Americans or Europeans. It's not that they don't care about South America, Africa or Asia, but their main interest is probably the story of their own country or of their own continent. At least for the most part.
As has also been pointed out, the lack of sources is another explanation. We have way more sources on European history (most of the board's TLs are arguably European-centred) than on the other continents. A lot of things explain this: lack of translation of those sources, the fact that theses sources are rare in the first place in the South American and African cases (we have very few sources on pre-colonial history in those cases), and also a lack of interest among the Historian community (I haven't seen many history book that talk about South America unless they mention Spanish and Portuguese conquest in the XVIth century). A lot of this probably doesn't really acount for Asia, though I should point out that most of Asian TLs are centered on Japan and China: the rest of the continent is neglected.
On a side note, another continent that doesn't get much love is Oceania. How many of you have seen TLs involving Australia, New Zealand, Tonga or any country of that part of the World?
As has also been pointed out, the lack of sources is another explanation. We have way more sources on European history (most of the board's TLs are arguably European-centred) than on the other continents. A lot of things explain this: lack of translation of those sources, the fact that theses sources are rare in the first place in the South American and African cases (we have very few sources on pre-colonial history in those cases), and also a lack of interest among the Historian community (I haven't seen many history book that talk about South America unless they mention Spanish and Portuguese conquest in the XVIth century). A lot of this probably doesn't really acount for Asia, though I should point out that most of Asian TLs are centered on Japan and China: the rest of the continent is neglected.
On a side note, another continent that doesn't get much love is Oceania. How many of you have seen TLs involving Australia, New Zealand, Tonga or any country of that part of the World?
Because South American history is boring.
Hey now, just because South America in our timeline has had little to no effect on the events of the world for the last three centuries doesn't mean its boring!
I'm glad Brazil's aiming for Great Power status nowaday's, may make things more interesting.
A good part of it is people write TL's that effect the world, and South American history, while interesting and full of unique and sometimes outlandish events (like half a countries population being killed in war, or all the Germans fighting in various 19th century wars), most of them are'nt going to really have any major effects outside of South America itself.
For instance, you can come-up with a France-based TL in which Europe, the Americas and Asia are all changed/affected greatly, but even a Brazil-based TL will only effect at most North America.
For instance, you can come-up with a France-based TL in which Europe, the Americas and Asia are all changed/affected greatly, but even a Brazil-based TL will only effect at most North America.
The main reasons there aren't many Oceania timelines are:
1) Australian and New Zealand history is VERY boring. Trust me, i have to do a scholarship on early New Zealand history.
2) There is relatively limited impact. Most events in Oceania won't change the world like it would in America, Europe or Asia.
3) There is relatively little potential. In the Pacific Islands, there are very few natural resources that can be used to become an industrial society, therefore there is little to no long-term economic gain that can occur in the Pacific Islands. The small population just means that all they can do as far as conquest is raid nearby tribes (which has no real importance) or piss-off nearby colonial nations.
That being said, a TL on more united Maori or on advanced Aboriginal societies, while quite ASB, are interesting. I quite like "Land of Red and Gold".
1) Australian and New Zealand history is VERY boring. Trust me, i have to do a scholarship on early New Zealand history.
2) There is relatively limited impact. Most events in Oceania won't change the world like it would in America, Europe or Asia.
3) There is relatively little potential. In the Pacific Islands, there are very few natural resources that can be used to become an industrial society, therefore there is little to no long-term economic gain that can occur in the Pacific Islands. The small population just means that all they can do as far as conquest is raid nearby tribes (which has no real importance) or piss-off nearby colonial nations.
That being said, a TL on more united Maori or on advanced Aboriginal societies, while quite ASB, are interesting. I quite like "Land of Red and Gold".
I suppose the only way to fix this would be to have a united South America...but the only way I can see that happening is if Spain colonized/conquered the entire continent....
which in itself would be interesting.
BlondieBC
Banned
I would go with change in the independence process to get larger countries. Make Bolivar, or someone like him, an effective Pan-Spanish-American type leader. Maybe with enough countries (Gran Columbia) and Upper and Lower Peru, there is enough to have an interesting country.
Also, part of it is geography. Would anyone really try to conquer the Amazon basin, and if say Grand Columbia did, would it make any difference to the big picture? Argentina has some natural borders, high Andes, swamps of Paraguay.
Lack of resources for the Islands. Take a time line where the USA keeps all the small islands in the Pacific (Marshall, Federated states of Micronesia, Solomons, Fiji, etc.) These island provide few resources or people to make American stronger, more interesting. And a TL where the are territories will just largely be about preventing ethnic issues in Fiji and how the Oceanic people will partially replace the Mexicans who came to the USA to work. Now if they become states (4-10 senators), the TL will be about how the change critical USA votes, such as ERA amendment passes, Bork is on supreme court.
While it would be nice for the Federated States of Micronesia to be USA states, it is hard to see any real impact besides it is easier to go on vacation there and maybe a few more direct flights from the USA.
I've been toying with a timeline for a Super-Argentina starting closer to 1835 that eventually incorporates the Piritian Republic, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, and large parts of central America. They join the UK during WWII and instead of lend-lease outright purchase the Falklands, South Shetlands, Guyana, Belize, Jamaica, and the Bahamas. Brazil stays quite neutral and inherits Angola, Mozambique, and Macao from a Portugal unable to sustain colonial rule anymore. By 2010 the continent is basically Brazil and Argentina/satellites with Buenos Aires and both are even stronger/bigger tech centers. Both also have seats on the UN security council and they each have strong space programs
The Brazilian Empire's foreign policy was to intervene if the balance of power of the La Plata Basin was changed, since this would threaten the navigation on the rivers and therefore access to the province of Mato Grosso This was the main reason for the Platine Wars of the 1850's. If you want Argentina to do that, first you will have to crush Brazil, which will prove to be very hard especially on the naval front. This or completely change Brazil's foreign policy from an imperialistic regional power to an isolationist minor power. How to do this is beyond me (maybe butterfly away Pedro I and therefore the monarchy), but it will certainly change the essence of your TL.
