What could bring 19th century Germany closer to the UK?

JJohnson

Banned
My question is pretty simple: what sort of event or events could have changed in the 19th century that would bring Germany closer alliance-wise with the United Kingdom, such that the UK and Germany are allies by the 20th?

The caveat is Germany should still have its 1871 borders at least, to the present day. Austria can still be separated or merged with Germany, either way, and Sudetenland can be annexed to Germany or at least gain some minority protections within the Czech nation. By the end of the 20th century, Germany should be a relatively free (having freedom of the press, speech, religion, conscience, assembly, etc), democratic (regular elections), and prosperous nation. This Germany would not have been an enemy to the UK or USA during any wars fought, and be seen in a relatively positive light by a good portion of the world as a stable, free, fair country to deal with internationally.

With that, how would the late 19th century through the 20th play out? Would France seek out a revanchist alliance with Russia, or perhaps even Austria-Hungary, for some war in the 20th? How would the Kaisers develop into present day? What kind of country do you think Germany would look like in such a timeline?
 

Elfwine

Making Germany more democratic is not going to do anything to address that Germany's ambitions and Britain's interests are, at best, butting up against each other, and at worst in open conflict.

It might be good to have Frederick III last longer and draw Germany in a liberal democracy direction, but it won't eliminate that problem alone.
 

JJohnson

Banned
Elfwine said:
Making Germany more democratic is not going to do anything to address that Germany's ambitions and Britain's interests are, at best, butting up against each other, and at worst in open conflict.

It might be good to have Frederick III last longer and draw Germany in a liberal democracy direction, but it won't eliminate that problem alone.
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I agree with you there...having Frederick III last longer as Kaiser could draw Germany more liberal, and possibly lead to signing some kind of naval armament treaty to diffuse tensions from the UK. Let's say he lasts a decade or two, or assumes the throne earlier from his predecessor, what kinds of changes would you reasonably expect from him?

How do you think the Congress of Berlin (1878) and the Berlin Conference (1884) would change, if at all? Wikipedia (taken with a grain of salt) said the 1878 conference had Bismarck looking for alliance outside of Russia, since they were no longer reliable. Perhaps this conference could shift his outlook towards the British? Russia was angered OTL by the outcome of that congress, perhaps enough for them to write off alliance with Germany long enough to be on the opposite side in any future conflict.
 

Thespitron 6000

I'm wondering if Victoria had been born a boy, and the English monarchs had retained Hanover, would this have brought about more English interest in German affairs, and perhaps a unification of Germany under a friendly dynasty less concerned with competing with Britain at sea, rather than the Hohenzollerns? I don't know much about German unification, I'm afraid.
 

eliphas8

Elfwine said:
Making Germany more democratic is not going to do anything to address that Germany's ambitions and Britain's interests are, at best, butting up against each other, and at worst in open conflict.

It might be good to have Frederick III last longer and draw Germany in a liberal democracy direction, but it won't eliminate that problem alone.
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Well the OTL event that destroyed relations between the UK and Germany was Germany's attempts to one up their navy. If that didnt happen (and if you kill Wilhelm and replace him with someone less stupid) then Germany likely would maintain friendly relations with Britain.
 

Elfwine

Even if he lasts a decade (dying at 67) or two (77), what's to say that treaty lasts longer than him?

And the big naval arms race is post-Dreadnought (completed December 1906), so it wouldn't do that much good unless it does.

Fritz didn't become emperor until '88, so his survival doesn't really change either of those events - although changes there might lead places on top of Fritz's survival.
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

Probably an aggressively revanchist (possibly pseudo-fascist) France. But we need a few other things: 1) France allying with Russia and Austria-Hungary. Also it would help to have a neutral Spain, Italy and Ottoman Empire. This can give France the balls to antagonise both Britain and Germany. 2) A weakened Britain. Making them somehow lose India would help the most, but I can't think of a way to bring that about. A Canada lost to the USA, maybe in the war of 1812, would also be very helpful. Germany and Britain would be forced into a marriage of convenience.
 

Socrates

Thespitron 6000 said:
I'm wondering if Victoria had been born a boy, and the English monarchs had retained Hanover, would this have brought about more English interest in German affairs, and perhaps a unification of Germany under a friendly dynasty less concerned with competing with Britain at sea, rather than the Hohenzollerns? I don't know much about German unification, I'm afraid.
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A liberal British ruler of Hannover could be offered the German throne by the Frankfurt Parliament.
 

Monty Burns

Elfwine said:
Making Germany more democratic is not going to do anything to address that Germany's ambitions and Britain's interests are, at best, butting up against each other, and at worst in open conflict.
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That's true for imperial Germany after 1871. With an earlier POD that'S not necessarily true. If you had a democratic 1848 Germany and a more imperialistic France, the interests of Britain and Germany are in line: democratic against non-democratic, and both have an interest to keep the balance of power.
 

Elfwine

Monty Burns said:
That's true for imperial Germany after 1871. With an earlier POD that'S not necessarily true. If you had a democratic 1848 Germany and a more imperialistic France, the interests of Britain and Germany are in line: democratic against non-democratic, and both have an interest to keep the balance of power.
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Well, I assumed - I could be wrong - 1871 borders mean "post-Franco-Prussian war POD".

Since that Germany may or may not want something like the Franco-Prussian war to take Alsace-Lorraine.

Why does this Germany care about the balance of power?
 

jkarr

remove or have bismarck rethink his "blood & iron" policy (but stil unify germany), and have frederick III live longer, can easily see a more friendly anglo-germanic realtion
 

Elfwine

jkarr said:
remove or have bismarck rethink his "blood & iron" policy (but stil unify germany), and have frederick III live longer, can easily see a more friendly anglo-germanic realtion
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But Bismarck's policy didn't inspire hostility, that came from post-Bismarckian policies.
 

VictorLaszlo

Had Frederick III. been as long-lived as his father, he would have died in September 1921, so if he had supported a government that would not have persued a naval arms race with Britain, there would have been none even after Dreadnought had been launched. And when Wikhelm II. ascends the throne in 1921 he would be 62 instead of 29 and thus not only much more experienced, but also more sedate.

The wildcard when it comes to global politics in this would be France. How will they act when relations between Britain and Germany stay friendly. Will they be more careful and persue a non-aggressive foreign policy due to a possible Anglo-German alliance or will they be more bellicose towards Britain and let something along the lines of the Fachoda crisis escalate since they see little hope to form anything like OTLs entente cordiale.

There could ensue a situation where Eurasia would be devided between an Anglo-German and a Franco-Russian led alliance, with Italy switching sides.
 

Elfwine

VictorLaszlo said:
Had Frederick III. been as long-lived as his father, he would have died in September 1921, so if he had supported a government that would not have persued a naval arms race with Britain, there would have been none even after Dreadnought had been launched. And when Wikhelm II. ascends the throne in 1921 he would be 62 instead of 29 and thus not only much more experienced, but also more sedate.

The wildcard when it comes to global politics in this would be France. How will they act when relations between Britain and Germany stay friendly. Will they be more careful and persue a non-aggressive foreign policy due to a possible Anglo-German alliance or will they be more bellicose towards Britain and let something along the lines of the Fachoda crisis escalate since they see little hope to form anything like OTLs entente cordiale.
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Well, it seems far more likely that friendly means Britain continues Splendid Isolation, than an active alliance.

How long did Wilhelm (II) live OTL? For comparison with how long Wilhelm I lived.
 

Falastur

Socrates said:
A liberal British ruler of Hannover could be offered the German throne by the Frankfurt Parliament.
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If the Frankfurt Parliament wanted to go down in history as the body of men that relegated Germany to the status of British footsoldier, sure.

Besides, this is ignoring the British take on the situation. The Westminster Parliament had been working hard at entirely avoiding any commitments to holding land on the European continent for a good century by this point (Gibraltar aside, it essentially being the equivalent of an island fortress). It hated having commitments to Hanover, and wanted adamantly to be rid of the German connection. If the Frankfurt Parliament made this offer, it's entirely likely that the Westminster Parliament would sit Victoria down and say "if you accept this throne we will pass laws to prevent you from enjoying it". They'd already passed laws banning the British monarchs from leaving the UK for longer than 12 months to stop the Hanoverians from focusing on Hanover for any length of time. They could easily shorten that to, say, 2 months, and place restrictions on Victoria's correspondance with her German government in an attempt at forcing the Frankfurt Parliament to give up on her...
 

VictorLaszlo

Elfwine said:
Well, it seems far more likely that friendly means Britain continues Splendid Isolation, than an active alliance.

How long did Wilhelm (II) live OTL? For comparison with how long Wilhelm I lived.
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Wilhelm II. died in 1941, aged 82 in OTL. Wilhelm I. died shortly before his 91st birthday, leading to the german proverb: "Der erste war der greise Kaiser, der zweite war der weise Kaiser, der dritte ist der Reisekaiser." ("The first one was the senect emperor, the second one was the wise emperor, the third one is the traveling emperor.") mocking Wilhelm II. wanderlust.

As to a possible alliance between Britain and Germany, as I mentioned it would depend on how France would behave. If, allied with Russia, they would show open hostility towards Britain, with Russia invading Afghanistan and France some territory in Africa claimed by Britain I could easily see an Anglo-German alliance along the lines of the entente cordiale.
 

Elfwine

VictorLaszlo said:
Wilhelm II. died in 1941, aged 82 in OTL. Wilhelm I. died shortly before his 91st birthday, leading to the german proverb: "Der erste war der greise Kaiser, der zweite war der weise Kaiser, der dritte ist der Reisekaiser." ("The first one was the senect emperor, the second one was the wise emperor, the third one is the traveling emperor.") mocking Wilhelm II. wanderlust.

As to a possible alliance between Britain and Germany, as I mentioned it would depend on how France would behave. If, allied with Russia, they would show open hostility towards Britain, with Russia invading Afghanistan and France some territory in Africa claimed by Britain I could easily see an Anglo-German alliance along the lines of the entente cordiale.
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Possible. Although that raises the question why Germany wants to support Britain - as in, what does it get for this?

Would make an interesting timeline, I think.
 
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