America's fighting women:A search for good POD's.

I am on a serach for good Points of divergence that would put American women on the front lines as official combat troops in the 1980's. Essentially, what would have to happen before then to make it possible and palettable to send young female American citizens to fight on a more or less equal footing with men?

Help a sister out here.

Given what the United States is I'd have to think this would take something big to happen much before the Iraq war. Yes, I know we still don't have full integration, but it does seem to be coming and given what our allies have done I don't think it would be hard to devise a TL where t happens in the early 2000s.

The three real opportunities that come to mind are a conventionally fought WWIII at just about any time (hard to imagine full integration wouldn't happen in any post WWII non nuclear total war, increasing odds and a quicker decision as time goes on though) and a more desperate Britain putting women in combat for either of the world wars. The two world wars are a bit of a stretch, but maybe not quite as big as people might think, especially if in WWII the expeditionary force is lost and sealion is launched (I could see a lot of women ending up at bomber command if they stay in the war after those). If it must be front line infantry then WWI might be easier than II, but you're going to need a more successful suffrage movement prewar combined with worse early war casualties and a bigger commitment to total victory (maybe a hochseeflote that can actually threaten invasion) at a bare minimum.

The other thing in my head is that any post Vietnam draft (again, more so as time goes on) is likely going to have to be co-ed for political reasons. It might not actually force integration but I suspect that the way American conscription works would lead to female infantry very quickly if women were being conscripted.

Bureaucromancer said:

Give what the United States is I'd have to think this would take something big to happen much before the Iraq war. Yes, I know we still don't have full integration, but it does seem to be coming and given what our allies have done I don't think it would be hard to devise a TL where t happens in the early 2000s.

The three real opportunities that come to mind are a conventionally fought WWIII at just about any time (hard to imagine full integration wouldnt happen in any post WWII non nuclear total war, increasing odds and quicker decisiasana time goes on) and a more desperate Britain putting women in combat for either of the world wars. The two wars are a bit of a stretch, but maybe not quite as big as people might think, especially if in WWII the expeditionary force is lost and sealion is launched (I could see a lot of women ending up at bomber command if they stay in the war after those). If it must be front line infantry these WWI might be easier than II, but you're going to need a more successful suffrage movement prewar combined with worse early war casualties and a bigger commitment to total victory (maybe a hochseeflote that can actually threaten invasion) at a bare minimum.

The other thing in my head is that any post Vietnam draft (again, more so as time goes on) is likely going to have to be co-ed for political reasons. It might not actually force integration but I suspect that the way American conscription works would lead to female infantry very quickly if women were bein conscripted.

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I am thinking of using casualties in both world wars that are so bad for WW I that women HAVE to be used in second and third echelon positions. Then the Pacific and Euro war in WW II would be bad enough that just to get boots o nthe ground you have to put women where they are in the forces right now, OTL bat then .

Then make Korean a little more of a meat grinder and have Vietnam last another year or two.

I think that would make it possible by the 1980's.

Bureaucromancer said:

The other thing in my head is that any post Vietnam draft (again, more so as time goes on) is likely going to have to be co-ed for political reasons.

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But, Selective Service still only requires men to register, even in 2012.

Swan Station said:

But, Selective Service still only requires men to register, even in 2012.

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I need a POD that changes that.

You might need a massive, serious invasion of home soil. But I can't think of a PoD, and most certainly not post-1900.

Consider that the CSA was thinking of arming slaves - but didn't consider arming women.

Hmmm... The French never intervene in the ARW, the British win every battle, but eventually Parliament refuses to fund the bloody sore that the war has become.

But in the meantime, the war has degenerated into nasty guerilla-style bushwhacking, with 'partisan' groups roaming the countryside. Violated women take up arms with their brothers/husbands/fathers and join the militia. A major mixed group scores a significant victory, the best yet (possibly a medium scale skirmish), and propaganda talks of the heroic female resistance fighters.

Shortly, thereafter, the British pull out and it is portrayed as the women's victory.

Swan Station said:

But, Selective Service still only requires men to register, even in 2012.

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Yes, but in all honesty does anyone think there's even the slightest chance that the system could be activated without change? Maybe with a nuclear war in progress, but even then I wonder... Frankly at this point selective service doesn't mean a whole lot (and not necessarily because it's all that implausible for conscription to reappear).

PS: looking at my first post, ugh. Sorry for the mess, I'll clean it up when I can get off my phone.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

You might need a massive, serious invasion of home soil. But I can't think of a PoD, and most certainly not post-1900.

Consider that the CSA was thinking of arming slaves - but didn't consider arming women.

Hmmm... The French never intervene in the ARW, the British win every battle, but eventually Parliament refuses to fund the bloody sore that the war has become.

But in the meantime, the war has degenerated into nasty guerilla-style bushwhacking, with 'partisan' groups roaming the countryside. Violated women take up arms with their brothers/husbands/fathers and join the militia. A major mixed group scores a significant victory, the best yet (possibly a medium scale skirmish), and propaganda talks of the heroic female resistance fighters.

Shortly, thereafter, the British pull out and it is portrayed as the women's victory.

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Oh Shoot that's GOOD! It will make things RADICALLY different and cause junkloads of butterflies but I think I can do something.

WW2 might not be doable, but what about at some point(s) say during Korea or more likely during Vietnam, one or more US servicewomen, ie nurses or some other non combat rear area desk jobs, end up either having their base area attacked, or in transit to another area end up running into some sort of ambush or some freak occurence, and, irregardless of their non combat status, a random woman is forced to pick up an M-16 or whatever and start firing.

They are then pulled back to safety in a rear area, or possibly transfered out of the region completely, but for their efforts, the higher ups acknowledge their success. Not Medal of Honor worthy, but say something that gets a random woman or two a Silver Star, or perhaps the Navy Cross/Distinguished Service Cross/Air Force Cross.

Aside from nurses and some bureaucratic desk jobs, I'm not even sure how many women actually set foot in Vietnam, so I don't know how likely the chances of something like that happening would be, but I know of two women in the US Army, one that was in Afghanistan, and one in Iraq, that where involved in ambushes or convoy incidents that forced them into fighting mode, and they where given the Silver Star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Lin_Brown

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester

A random female nurse or other rear area person being put into a similar event in Korea or Vietnam probably isn't very likely, though not impossible, and it probably wouldn't see women as front line infantry or armor. But it could open up positions such as Military Police, Intelligence, possibly get women helicopter pilots sooner, maybe a few other support jobs coming around sooner.

Bureaucromancer said:

Yes, but in all honesty does anyone think there's even the slightest chance that the system could be activated without change? Maybe with a nuclear war in progress, but even then I wonder... Frankly at this point selective service doesn't mean a whole lot (and not necessarily because it's all that implausible for conscription to reappear).

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Agreed, although you can remove the "without change" and I'd still agree.

However, my point was that the Selective Service records would supposedly be what they build the draft lists out of if there were a draft post-Vietnam. Therefore, if the only change were a war post-Vietnam in which a draft was enacted, then the draft would pull exclusively from a list of men, at least at the beginning.

Now, post-Vietnam, the war would have to be pretty dire -- and extremely popular -- to force the government to institute a draft. The only way I could see that happen would be an invasion of U.S. soil. In which case, the first draft post-Vietnam would still be all men for the reason I stated above. However, if the invading country is actually strong enough to keep the war going a little while longer, then the draft would probably end up including women and men. But... what is the likelihood of that with a POD after 1973?

About 7,000 Servicewomen served in South Vietnam, mostly Army, Navy, or AF nurses, though there were WACs, WAFs (Women in the Air Force), and even a few Women Marines (yes, that's what they were called back then). There are a few possible scenarios for women to come under fire and return fire: I'll run through a couple.

Scenario A: MEDCAP (Medical Civic Action Program) run to a village. These usually had a doctor and a couple nurses, plus corpsmen, and an infantry squad, sometimes a platoon, for security. The "hearts and minds" concept at work...anyway, one of the smaller groups could easily have been ambushed, the villiage they're visiting is attacked, etc., and several of the grunts go down. One of the nurses grabs a weapon and returns fire. After the VC or NVA are driven off, the event makes headlines, she's known as "The Annie Oakely of Southeast Asia," yada, yada. Rotated back to the States early, Silver Star, etc.

Scenario B: AF Jolly Green Giant helo. These big air rescue choppers often made trips from SVN to Thailand, and an AF nurse or WAF hops aboard to hitch a ride to visit a boyfriend at whatever base: Udorn, Korat, or Nakon Phanom in Thailand, or Da Nang, Phu Cat, or whatever, in SVN. Helo is shot down in SVN and everyone, Pilots, Crew Chief, PJs, and the nurse passenger have to fight off the NVA or VC hoping to send the whole bunch up the Trail to the not-so-comfortable accomodations in the Hanoi Hilton. One or two of the crew get killed, another two get wounded, but the nurse and a couple others fight off the attackers until help arrives. Same thing follows: mucho attention in the press, early rotation back Stateside, decoration with Silver Star (or Bronze Star with V Device at least), and so on.

Double the media attention that follows if the nurse in question is captured and held until Operation Homecoming in 1973 and the full story about said fire-fight emerges.

Medal of Honor scenarios are out, but perhaps a Navy Cross or Distinguished Service Cross might be awarded at some point.

Concur with no MOH, but a Silver Star or Bronze Star with V Device is likely.

Guys, I am ooking for an AH that puts women in combat in an official capacity, as in as official combat troops.

Realistically, you'd have to get ERA passed in 1982. If that happens, then the combat exclusion law that restrict where women can serve get thrown out. That'd be your POD. First female combat pilots would probably get winged sometime in 1983 or 1984 in the AF, Army, and Navy (longer for the Marines-they have to go through infantry school first), but you'd see women flying combat against Libya in 1986, and female sailors on the ships in the Med. It's possible that you might see a few flying in Grenada as part of the initial invasion-the C-130s and C-141s that flew Rangers and 82nd into Grenada on Day One.

As for ground troops, It may take a year or so, but by 1984, you'd see the first female grunts and tankers showing up. First combat for them would be Panama in '89, then DESERT SHIELD/STORM.

Matt Wiser said:

Realistically, you'd have to get ERA passed in 1982. If that happens, then the combat exclusion law that restrict where women can serve get thrown out. That'd be your POD. First female combat pilots would probably get winged sometime in 1983 or 1984 in the AF, Army, and Navy (longer for the Marines-they have to go through infantry school first), but you'd see women flying combat against Libya in 1986, and female sailors on the ships in the Med. It's possible that you might see a few flying in Grenada as part of the initial invasion-the C-130s and C-141s that flew Rangers and 82nd into Grenada on Day One.

As for ground troops, It may take a year or so, but by 1984, you'd see the first female grunts and tankers showing up. First combat for them would be Panama in '89, then DESERT SHIELD/STORM.

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I can see that as a good possibility. In fact that rout or something similar was what I was already thinking, but I wasn't sure on some of my points.

I was pushing Ft. Bragg to China in the '80's, and most of the women I served with were thrilled to be in non combat positions. We occasionally had combat training, and invariably someone would pop up with "I'm a clerk-typist, and in a combat service support unit! Why do I need to know this stuff?" We'd explain about Soviet vertical envelopment doctrine: "There is no such thing as a 'front line,' everybody gets to see combat, especially rear echelon troops."

That said, in OTL, the POD came in Panama. A unit of MPs with a female commander were in a combat (something about a Panamanian K9 unit IIRC), and there was much consternation among the political set. "How did it happen that a woman wound up on the front lines!" To which those of us who knew the situation replied "Because there ARE NO FRONT LINES you dolts! ...Um, Sir." This was the point where even politicians had to confront reality and start to consider the whole situation.

Put that event somewhere in the 60's, 70's or earlier 80's: "Women are in combat, whether we like it or not" and force the decision to either not deploy your female troops into a combat theatre, or go ahead and start allowing for combat options.

ERA

Hi, I stared a TL in which ERA passed in 1977. I had Jimmy Carter push hard with it. It was savaged and I quit. Better Luck, with yours, I will read it, when you put it on site.

King Midas said:

I was pushing Ft. Bragg to China in the '80's, and most of the women I served with were thrilled to be in non combat positions. We occasionally had combat training, and invariably someone would pop up with "I'm a clerk-typist, and in a combat service support unit! Why do I need to know this stuff?" We'd explain about Soviet vertical envelopment doctrine: "There is no such thing as a 'front line,' everybody gets to see combat, especially rear echelon troops."

That said, in OTL, the POD came in Panama. A unit of MPs with a female commander were in a combat (something about a Panamanian K9 unit IIRC), and there was much consternation among the political set. "How did it happen that a woman wound up on the front lines!" To which those of us who knew the situation replied "Because there ARE NO FRONT LINES you dolts! ...Um, Sir." This was the point where even politicians had to confront reality and start to consider the whole situation.

Put that event somewhere in the 60's, 70's or earlier 80's: "Women are in combat, whether we like it or not" and force the decision to either not deploy your female troops into a combat theatre, or go ahead and start allowing for combat options.

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Good tip good tip thank you I'll bear it in mind.

Matt Wiser said:

Realistically, you'd have to get ERA passed in 1982. If that happens, then the combat exclusion law that restrict where women can serve get thrown out. That'd be your POD. First female combat pilots would probably get winged sometime in 1983 or 1984 in the AF, Army, and Navy (longer for the Marines-they have to go through infantry school first), but you'd see women flying combat against Libya in 1986, and female sailors on the ships in the Med. It's possible that you might see a few flying in Grenada as part of the initial invasion-the C-130s and C-141s that flew Rangers and 82nd into Grenada on Day One.

As for ground troops, It may take a year or so, but by 1984, you'd see the first female grunts and tankers showing up. First combat for them would be Panama in '89, then DESERT SHIELD/STORM.

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Yes, this is the best way.

Otherwise you need a long series of small to modest POD's to get close. Just for giggles.

1) Small volunteer unit of women perform heroically in Spanish Civil war. They gets lots of press coverage when a major paper gets behind them, to help sell papers.

2) Some American women get to fight in WW2. Say go with something like Flying Tigers lead by Amelia Earhart. Again, big press coverage.

3) American women allowed in increased roles in Korea. Not even sure how this happens, but if Truman integrate the Army, maybe he can allow women in some combat related units like AA batteries, flying cargo planes that drop paratroopers, helicopter pilots. Again, they need to perform well and have good press.

4) In Vietnam, women are most helicopter pilots. As these choppers are armed, they also fly cobras.

5) In post Vietnam reorganization of US Army, Women are allowed in combat roles.

Unless you use the ERA or some Supreme Court ruling, it is very, very hard to avoid ASB land.