Britain still a world power?

I know, I know, the UK is technically still a major influence in the world today. But is there anything that could have happened to prevent its fall from superpower status? What could have let the UK remain with an economy and military at least somewhat competitive and/or close to equal with the US? Could such a thing happen w/ France as well? If these two nations remained as global powers close to equal with the US, how would they affect the Cold War? Could they bargain with the USSR more aggressively, perhaps even diplomatically force a reunification of Germany early? Is any of this possible, or is it ASB?

(I would like to mention the irony of me asking this question, as I am American)

One word: India.

If they could somehow hold onto India and possibly avoid the ruinous cost of he second World War you at least maintain the basis of being a Great Power. The problem is that well before World war Two there was mounting pressure to get out of India. Even a compromise such as Dominion status won't be enough as the UK would still lose most of heir economic benefits. They need India to remain a colony in order to continue to control her resources and markets.

Perhaps with the beginning of the Cold War the US and British public are more willing to support repression in the sub continent as a way to prop up the British Empire and leave it able to help oppose the Soviets. Similar efforts in Egypt would also help.

The real problem is that even if the UK had the stomach for doing whatever it took to remain they just couldn't afford it anymore. A much shorter and less costly World War Two would also help maintain the empire.

It all depends on how you define "superpower." If WW1 can be avoided then Britain remains the dominant global power for at least another 50 years, the War left Britain in substantial debt to the U.S. and it had to accept that it would be one of several dominant powers. WW2 shattered Britain's economy and ended any chance off it being able to compete with the U.S. and USSR, now if Britain had managed it's economy better post war then it would avoided the economic train wreck of the 60's and 70's and would have a much greater military capability retaining bases in places like Singapore and Malta.

Something to note is that the Empire is going to break up eventually as nationalist movements take hold, the earlier the PoD means that it can last longer and increases the chances of a much closer Commonwealth forming to replace it.

Earlier economic revitalisation, and one of two options: either a more successful decolonisation, with less foreign pressure and more time to build up British backed 'moderate nationalists' in halfway decent countries, that manages to retain more small colonies across the world and a closer commonwealth, OR abandon the Empire rapidly and return to Europe.

Or a better fought WWII, with Germany being defeated in France, 1940, could leave Britain in a massively better postwar position.

You could also have a very, very early PoD (and it's pretty much ASB, as it would require a mass change of people's minds, though physically possible): a different colonial attitude. Have them pour money into the development and education in the various non-white colonies by the late 19th century, and consequently greatly increase both the standard of living and native involvement in governance (and therefore, without having to carry out political repression). While it's arguable whether most nations in OTL were better off or not after independence, 'ITTL' it makes the alteration that membership and integration with the global whole is highly beneficial and an element of national identity in itself.

The UK's economic benefits might be fairly small, but a very close bloc (an 'Anglo Federation', though the name Commonwealth would probably still be closen) of allied nations without any reason to split off, and steadily becoming wealthier, more productive, and able to help others and themselves, would be a third, collective superpower in its own right, and able to go toe-to-toe with either.

There'd be many other butterflies, of course - a Sino-Soviet split is unlikely if China still becomes Communist and there are two major democratic superpowers, one in their back yard, to contend with, just off the top of my head.

There is really only one way to make post WWII Britain substantially more powerful than OTL, and it is an Imperial Federation with Canada, Australia and NZ, perhaps South Africa as well though that one will probably create some trouble in the latter half of the 20th century.

Keeping the rest of the empire is impossible, a true Commonwealth free-trade area/military alliance could work but wouldn't make Britain itself much more powerful and less expensive world wars and better economic policy after WWII will not make enough of an improvement.

Britain has made so many cock-ups on the home front economically that it would be fairly easy to do TL were things go better for them in that regard. Binding the White Dominions closer to her rather than letting them drift away would also help on several levels. Finally a clear and sensible plan to slowly transition the Empire into a series of de facto client states tied to and dependent on Britain to a certain degree while presenting the veneer of giving said countries independence would likely be a major boon.

Is there any way that the UK could have remained at it's status without keeping its empire? We all know it's possible for a country with little land to succeed economically and militarily, seeing how Japan has pulled it off; could the UK do the same thing without its empire, on a larger scale? Could it become a very technologically advanced akin to Japan in OTL?

Draco said:

Britain has made so many cock-ups on the home front economically that it would be fairly easy to do TL were things go better for them in that regard. Binding the White Dominions closer to her rather than letting them drift away would also help on several levels. Finally a clear and sensible plan to slowly transition the Empire into a series of de facto client states tied to and dependent on Britain to a certain degree while presenting the veneer of giving said countries independence would likely be a major boon.

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Yup. You would need some major changes in economic policy in order to keep Britain competitive with the US, to say nothing of Western Europe. Britain needs to modernize most of industries, and upgrade the machine tools and factory stock. Britain also especially needs to rationalize its structures of management in both the corporate and governmental levels. The postwar nationalizations certainly didn't help matters in this regard.

The UK needs to stay out of the First World war for as long as possible and avoid sacrificing a generation.

They need to keep close ties with the origional commonwealth.

Get off and stay off the Gold Standard.

Back British (& commonwealth) industry where ever possible.

Free movement of people and goods throughout the old commonwealth.

Treat commonwealth governments as full partners not children to be told what to do.

Britain was always more of a seapower than a land power, so don't destroy the Royal Navy.

Don't nationalise every major industry only to starve them of adequate investment.

(Poisonong Kaiser Bill and Cousin Nicky without getting caught would help)

Somehow giving the post WW2 government (who ever that is ITTL) the hindsight to;

A) join the EEC
B) allow France & (IIRC) Norway to join the commonwealth kick start a commonweth EU*
C) just using the head start that not having its economy and infrastructure wrecked by the Nazis to establish a economic lead over western Europe that sticks


*doing A & B could lead to Commonweath/EU wank (yes long shot)

There are options both large and small, early and recent for Britain to retain a status far above her current power status. There is a thread about the 1957 Defence White Paper is a case in point, a stupid Government decision which crippled both British power projection capabilities and the economic benefit of a strong aviation industry. The Whale has Wings is a TL where the political decision to give naval aviation back to the RN is made in a timely manner, resulting in a powerful FAA.

Keep in mind that decisions concerning military power last for decades, the WW1 Queen Elizabeth battleships were front line ships in WW2 and the surviviors of the 1957 Defence White paper, the Lightning and Buccaneer lasted until 1988 and 1993.

Shtudmuffin said:

Is there any way that the UK could have remained at it's status without keeping its empire? We all know it's possible for a country with little land to succeed economically and militarily, seeing how Japan has pulled it off; could the UK do the same thing without its empire, on a larger scale? Could it become a very technologically advanced akin to Japan in OTL?

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Super Power - No not enough people.

More Powerful- many ways.


The closest I can come without the empire would be for the Commonwealth to be something like NATO, where the UK is generally the lead country. You also need to have India be an enthusiastic member of the commonwealth, so you need India to go to Dominion status about the same time as Canada, New Zealand, etc. In this situation, Greater India (including Muslim areas and Burma) would have on of the three largest armies in the word. The the UK, Aussies, and NZ could spend 90% of their military budget on Navy + Air Force, and Canada could be a mix of forces. And the useful ports would also be an active part of the Commonwealth, so Singapore and Hong Kong are a part of the system. But this may well not be what you are looking for.

The UK issue is it is hard to be a super power with 60 million people with a world population of 6 billion plus. The USA is about 5% of the world population. The USSR was a bit higher in the 1970's. The UK just lacks some the economies of scale for the weapons system needed to be a superpower.

Shtudmuffin said:

I know, I know, the UK is technically still a major influence in the world today. But is there anything that could have happened to prevent its fall from superpower status? What could have let the UK remain with an economy and military at least somewhat competitive and/or close to equal with the US? Could such a thing happen w/ France as well? If these two nations remained as global powers close to equal with the US, how would they affect the Cold War? Could they bargain with the USSR more aggressively, perhaps even diplomatically force a reunification of Germany early? Is any of this possible, or is it ASB?

(I would like to mention the irony of me asking this question, as I am American)

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Here's a thought. I know I rarely post on this part of the Forum, but I'll throw my idea in and see what happens.

Have the British discover Trench Warfare earlier then OTL, or at least methods to combat it. Slightly pre 1900, but if you could have the Boer defense at Magersfortein inflict higher British losses, or cause the rest of the Boer leadership to start using trenches against the British as well. While it won't cause British defeat, the British military leadership will have to develop some tactics to deal with them, which if WW1 still rolls around, may allow the British to be more effective in combating the CP. Or at least stop Hague.

If Britain performs better, then it would be more able to weather the war, meaning that British should emerge from WW1 less blooded.

Its a start, and gives the Brits a manpower boost if losses can be reduced from OTL.

A pointless discussion, seeing how "world power" is a pretty ad hoc term, anyway.

One point to bring. There was talk at one point of a unified Imperial Air Force which came to nothing due to oposition from the various dominions. what if the british authorities managed to convinced the others to unified the armed forces of the empire ?

Shtudmuffin said:

I know, I know, the UK is technically still a major influence in the world today. But is there anything that could have happened to prevent its fall from superpower status? What could have let the UK remain with an economy and military at least somewhat competitive and/or close to equal with the US? Could such a thing happen w/ France as well? If these two nations remained as global powers close to equal with the US, how would they affect the Cold War? Could they bargain with the USSR more aggressively, perhaps even diplomatically force a reunification of Germany early? Is any of this possible, or is it ASB?

(I would like to mention the irony of me asking this question, as I am American)

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In what way is the UK influential in the world today?

Enigmajones said:

In what way is the UK influential in the world today?

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Permanent seat on the UNSC, one of the the largest economies in the World, a major influence in fashion, music etc.

Enigmajones said:

In what way is the UK influential in the world today?

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Lets start with the elephant in the room: the UK is a MAJOR nuclear power. It is one of five (maybe six) countries on Earth that is quite literally capable of ending civilization.

Beyond that rather significant matter, the UK is also wields massive influence in these ares (among many others):

Finance (London is probably a bit ahead of even New York in this area).
Education (several of the truly GREAT universities call it home).
NATO
UNSC
Top five land power
Top five naval power (naval powers can be divided into two stacks, those who operate SSN/SSBN and everyone else)
Top 10 air power (the lack of a deep strike capacity hurts here)
Political influence, especially with the United States.