Australasian federation discussion thread

Julius Vogel · Mar 1, 2012

I am toying with a brief timeline on the Australasian and NZ colonies that ends up with a different kind or wider kind of federation.

The broad POD may be that NZ, for some reason, decides to abolish the 3/4/6/9 provinces and the central government, to create two single island provinces (North and South Islands). The thought being that if this happens prior to the mid 1870s, the two island provinces will participate in the federation talks and then join a later federation as the island provinces will still have a real economic & security imperative to join a larger state in a way that OTL NZ did not.

It seemed like a neat idea, but upon a little digging, I realise that it would still be a little messy and more complicated even just on the NZ side. So I need some suggestions for reading or research materials, on the following topics:

1. The discussions on federation in the Australian federation negotiations
2. British colonial policy in the white colonies 1850-1899 (specifically Canada, the Australias and NZ)
3. NZ colonial history 1854-1880 or so.

I am interested to hear any other PODs as well as general discussion on the topic.

Atomicwalrus · Mar 1, 2012

But, but that POD will butterfly ANZAC biscuits you monster.

On topic:

I can't really help with sources, but that type of broad POD should work, finding a way to remove racist laws in Australia might even be able to get New Zealand to join Australia during Australias federation instead of changing its provinces as I believe that was one of the main reason they didn't OTL, you might get Fiji to join as well since I believe they were initially in talks leading up to federation but left for similar reasons.

Getting New Zealand and New South Wales to join the Federal Council of Australasia before federation could also be a POD that could work.

Julius Vogel · Mar 1, 2012

The biscuits will survive, never fear!

Your second POD - the joining of the Council might be easier. Another idea I had was to have a nastier Russian scare or international war or something, to frighten the various colonies into action

Atomicwalrus · Mar 1, 2012

You might need to still do some fiddling after they join the council because Fiji joined it OTL, yet didn't join Australia at federation. The Russian scare might work I'm not sure how to make Russia a bigger bad though.

Julius Vogel · Mar 20, 2012

Atomicwalrus said:
You might need to still do some fiddling after they join the council because Fiji joined it OTL, yet didn't join Australia at federation. The Russian scare might work I'm not sure how to make Russia a bigger bad though.

Good points.

I wonder if maybe another approach could work - perhaps in the early 1880s, after the initial attempts at the FC, and perhaps with a slightly more hysterial response to the Russian/German/Japanese scares, Westminster creates a Defence Council, or something similar. Maybe at least a conference on defence of Australasia?

The point of this would be to have formal undertakings for the various colonies to cooperate on matters of defence. Outcomes could be a formal defence plan that encompasses training of territorial or milita regiments, an officer's school (like Duntroon IOTL), fortifications, funding or manning of a Royal Navy Australasian squadron etc. I don't imagine anything too ambitious would result, given lack of funds or a near term war, but if the cooperation institutions are created, then it creates a precedent and may also put the Colonies in better standing for the Second South African War.

Bartholome de Fonte · Mar 20, 2012

To get the White Australia policies not into effect, thus getting a bit more incentive for NZ to join up with them, simply have less Chinese migrate to Australia in the late 1800s. The policy itself was a reaction to that.

Julius Vogel · Mar 20, 2012

Novak said:
To get the White Australia policies not into effect, thus getting a bit more incentive for NZ to join up with them, simply have less Chinese migrate to Australia in the late 1800s. The policy itself was a reaction to that.

NZ actually had a pretty strong anti Chinese sentiment until the 1930s too. The last PM bar one, Helen Clark, felt necessary to apologise to the NZ Chinese community.

I think the Maori issue was more the problem, although that was certainly with mixed feelings. A lot of NZ British public opinion was firmly anti Maori and supported further efforts to finish the job of colonisation during the 19th century. Some of the language used by the politicians or newspaper editors was rather intemperate and reminds me of class ethnic clensing language.

Marc Pasquin · Mar 20, 2012

I don't realy think you could elliminate the white australia policy completely. the problem was that, beyond the cultural aspect to it, their was a large economical/protectionist one so what might happen is a *state based* racial policy so that you would have, in theory, equality at the federal level for all citizens in their basic rights but they might be subject to limitation when moving from one state to the other.

Julius Vogel · Mar 20, 2012

Marc Pasquin said:
I don't realy think you could elliminate the white australia policy completely. the problem was that, beyond the cultural aspect to it, their was a large economical/protectionist one so what might happen is a *state based* racial policy so that you would have, in theory, equality at the federal level for all citizens in their basic rights but they might be subject to limitation when moving from one state to the other.

It could perhaps be mitigated if Northern Australia was more heavily settled back in the 19th century. I've read a couple of the tracts written by the White Australian types from the era and they seem deeply fixated on invasion of the Empty North.

If there were reasonably sized settlements British pre Federation, maybe that would help assuage that fear? I posited a relocation of the Welsh Argentinian colony to a location in NW WA - say around Broome, Port Hedland or Darwin

el grapadura · Mar 20, 2012

Julius Vogel said:
I am toying with a brief timeline on the Australasian and NZ colonies that ends up with a different kind or wider kind of federation.

The broad POD may be that NZ, for some reason, decides to abolish the 3/4/6/9 provinces and the central government, to create two single island provinces (North and South Islands). The thought being that if this happens prior to the mid 1870s, the two island provinces will participate in the federation talks and then join a later federation as the island provinces will still have a real economic & security imperative to join a larger state in a way that OTL NZ did not.

It seemed like a neat idea, but upon a little digging, I realise that it would still be a little messy and more complicated even just on the NZ side. So I need some suggestions for reading or research materials, on the following topics:

1. The discussions on federation in the Australian federation negotiations
2. British colonial policy in the white colonies 1850-1899 (specifically Canada, the Australias and NZ)
3. NZ colonial history 1854-1880 or so.

I am interested to hear any other PODs as well as general discussion on the topic.

Well, given your user name, I guess you're probably well aware that there were moves to have the South Island become a separate colony - in fact a vote was held on this in 1865 in the NZ settler parliament, but was defeated. But the fears over such separatism were one of the driving factors why the capital was moved down to Wellington that same year, to a more central position.

The South Island was much more prosperous than the North from the 1850s until at least the end of the 19th century: with the discovery of gold in in Otago in 1861, Dunedin became the richest city in the entire colony. Add to that the problems that the North was experiencing at the time, which resulted in over a decade of warfare against various Maori groups, which the South resented having to support, and you certainly have the conditions where the political split between the two islands was certainly possible. Perhaps PoD could have something to do with the wars? Maybe have them prolonged somehow (maybe Titokowaru's followers don't mysteriously abandon him in 1869, and Taranaki and Wanganui fall under Maori control)? If the wars go on, maybe the separatist sentiment in the South gets more pronounced, and actually succeeds?

If it does, I'm not sure it would necessarily mean that the two separate colonies would be more likely to join a wider Australasian federation - they would probably get closer again during the Russian scares, and maybe even re-unite at some point (but the split would have caused butterflies though).

Julius Vogel · Mar 21, 2012

el grapadura said:
Well, given your user name, I guess you're probably well aware that there were moves to have the South Island become a separate colony - in fact a vote was held on this in 1865 in the NZ settler parliament, but was defeated. But the fears over such separatism were one of the driving factors why the capital was moved down to Wellington that same year, to a more central position.

The South Island was much more prosperous than the North from the 1850s until at least the end of the 19th century: with the discovery of gold in in Otago in 1861, Dunedin became the richest city in the entire colony. Add to that the problems that the North was experiencing at the time, which resulted in over a decade of warfare against various Maori groups, which the South resented having to support, and you certainly have the conditions where the political split between the two islands was certainly possible. Perhaps PoD could have something to do with the wars? Maybe have them prolonged somehow (maybe Titokowaru's followers don't mysteriously abandon him in 1869, and Taranaki and Wanganui fall under Maori control)? If the wars go on, maybe the separatist sentiment in the South gets more pronounced, and actually succeeds?

If it does, I'm not sure it would necessarily mean that the two separate colonies would be more likely to join a wider Australasian federation - they would probably get closer again during the Russian scares, and maybe even re-unite at some point (but the split would have caused butterflies though).

Your are of course quite right that the formation of separate island states as opposed to a united NZ as per OTL doesn't mean they will join an Australian federation. However I was looking for a POD for that to happen.

The other one I'm looking at is if common defence organisations or units form well prior to Australian federation, so even if NZ goes its own way (however that works), they still have the machinery of formal defence cooperation from day one.

The Uchronian · Mar 21, 2012

el grapadura said:
Well, given your user name, I guess you're probably well aware that there were moves to have the South Island become a separate colony - in fact a vote was held on this in 1865 in the NZ settler parliament, but was defeated. But the fears over such separatism were one of the driving factors why the capital was moved down to Wellington that same year, to a more central position.

The South Island was much more prosperous than the North from the 1850s until at least the end of the 19th century: with the discovery of gold in in Otago in 1861, Dunedin became the richest city in the entire colony. Add to that the problems that the North was experiencing at the time, which resulted in over a decade of warfare against various Maori groups, which the South resented having to support, and you certainly have the conditions where the political split between the two islands was certainly possible. Perhaps PoD could have something to do with the wars? Maybe have them prolonged somehow (maybe Titokowaru's followers don't mysteriously abandon him in 1869, and Taranaki and Wanganui fall under Maori control)? If the wars go on, maybe the separatist sentiment in the South gets more pronounced, and actually succeeds?

If it does, I'm not sure it would necessarily mean that the two separate colonies would be more likely to join a wider Australasian federation - they would probably get closer again during the Russian scares, and maybe even re-unite at some point (but the split would have caused butterflies though).

Hello, and welcome to the forums! I have tossed around a similar idea for some time now, TBH.

el grapadura · Mar 21, 2012

CaliBoy1990 said:
Hello, and welcome to the forums! I have tossed around a similar idea for some time now, TBH.

Thanks! I've been lurking around for a while just reading, and decided to finally register even though I'm quite busy at the moment so may not be able to contribute as much as I'd like to.

Going back to the OP, perhaps the biggest obstacle to NZ joining the Australian federation in OTL was the then NZ Premier Richard Seddon, who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond rather than a medium-sizes fish in a much larger pond (he also had his own imperialistic ideas over the islands in the South Pacific). So a POD where he and the Liberals aren't as successful, or even fail to emerge, aids the chances that NZ could join an Australian or some sort of an Australasian federation.

Julius Vogel · Mar 22, 2012

el grapadura said:
Thanks! I've been lurking around for a while just reading, and decided to finally register even though I'm quite busy at the moment so may not be able to contribute as much as I'd like to.

Going back to the OP, perhaps the biggest obstacle to NZ joining the Australian federation in OTL was the then NZ Premier Richard Seddon, who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond rather than a medium-sizes fish in a much larger pond (he also had his own imperialistic ideas over the islands in the South Pacific). So a POD where he and the Liberals aren't as successful, or even fail to emerge, aids the chances that NZ could join an Australian or some sort of an Australasian federation.

Hmm, maybe the first victim of a car accident?