The most powerful WW2 Axis possible

When I saw this thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=233368 it reminded me of a question I had a long time ago, WI Spain and Argentina had joined the Axis (plus any other countries that could feasibly be persuaded) and Germany never broke its pact with the USSR?

PRFU said:

Germany never broke its pact with the USSR?

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Well that's totally ASB, everything Hitler had been doing was geared towards attacking the USSR and gaining Lebensraum.

In summer 1942 the Axis had all the resources of mainland Europe at their disposal save Spain, Portugal, Switzerland and Turkey. They already had Sweden's resources by virtue of their position and German need or their Iron ore, and they had a reasonable amount of help from Spain anyway.

Taking the middle east would have made them more powerful than having a couple of second rate powers in Spain and Turkey join them IMO.

The Axis would have to have a neutral or semi-friendly Britain sending military goods and foodstuff to 'assist' Germany's war effort in the East...

A neutral or semi-non hostile Britain would ; in theory ;
free up some German Divisions and Air Wings from the Western Front to be moved towards Operation Barbarossa and assist either Army Group North or Army Group Centre...

sendô said:

Well that's totally ASB, everything Hitler had been doing was geared towards attacking the USSR and gaining Lebensraum.

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At some point of course, but not necessarily during the height of a World War! I'd say if anything attacking your ally, one of the biggest nations in the World (basically impossible for a smaller nation to occupy at the best of times) was ASB. But then Hitler always was a bit ASB..

sendô said:

In summer 1942 the Axis had all the resources of mainland Europe at their disposal save Spain, Portugal, Switzerland and Turkey. They already had Sweden's resources by virtue of their position and German need or their Iron ore, and they had a reasonable amount of help from Spain anyway.

Taking the middle east would have made them more powerful than having a couple of second rate powers in Spain and Turkey join them IMO.

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With the Turkish as allies they'd still have much of the Ottoman empire effectively at their disposal, and potentially that would even help them gain more Middle East allies. Spain and Portugals geographic position would allow Germany to control north Africa, alongside the Italians.

kclcmdr said:

The Axis would have to have a neutral or semi-friendly Britain sending military goods and foodstuff to 'assist' Germany's war effort in the East...

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Except that there is no move that the Germans can make that doesn't draw in the British against them.

Expanding the number of nations in the Axis is of little value unless you bring their military capabilities up to German standard.
Many countries lacked state of the art military hard ware (Look at the problems Italy had with 2nd rate equipment)

Just adding more territory and more people with out the military potential will have a negative impact. They would be easy pickings for the Allies.

By the same token, the Germans were struggling to maintain. Consider how much of their infantry formations where still relying on horse transport.

MattII said:

Except that there is no move that the Germans can make that doesn't draw in the British against them.

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Thats true, they're pretty much surrounded by British allies, or allies of allies. And even if not WW1 is still fresh in the minds of many, quite apart from turning them against war it makes them think any threat from Germany must be crushed as quickly as possible. Without the Soviet front though I tentatively ask could they have beaten Britain (sorry Sealion'd myself there! ) and used their remaining resources?

Basically I'm asking could the axis powers have effective World domination between them post AH WW2? It doesn't count as a wank because I hate the Axis, its more like a mindrape!

MattII said:

Except that there is no move that the Germans can make that doesn't draw in the British against them.

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It might take the near complete loss and capture of the BEF at Dunkirk by German Panzer Divs plus heavy losses of British Naval units trying to evac the small remnants of the BEF that might just convince the British Gov't either still under Chamberlain or another Prime Minister other than Churchill that it would be better to get terms with Herr Hitler and avoid at all cost any invasion that would have England under German Occupation....

PRFU said:

Without the Soviet front though I tentatively ask could they have beaten Britain (sorry Sealion'd myself there! ) and used their remaining resources?

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They might have been able to starve them into surrender, but they could never have invaded.

kclcmdr said:

It might take the near complete loss and capture of the BEF at Dunkirk by German Panzer Divs plus heavy losses of British Naval units trying to evac the small remnants of the BEF that might just convince the British Gov't either still under Chamberlain or another Prime Minister other than Churchill that it would be better to get terms with Herr Hitler and avoid at all cost any invasion that would have England under German Occupation....

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Except that the BEF was far from the whole of the British army, and both sides knew that invading would mean destroying the RAF and RN, which would be a real struggle for Germany. Oh, and you're not going to get that many more losses for the evacuation fleet, the Germans were already going at them tooth-and-nail, but they just didn't have the tools to do much.

Even without Hitler pwning himself attacking the USSR, it's hard to imagine the Germans ever being able to build up the necessaries to pull off Sealion. The longer they wait the more the British build up their air force and land defences and the bigger the Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine get the more expensive it gets. Even if the Germans could somehow match the RN on the seas their losses crossing the channel would surely be huge, and then they'd have to land in southern England Omaha beach style.

Well, the OTL Axis was Germany, Japan, Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, Iran, Romania, Yugoslavia (Briefly), Bulgaria, Finland, Iraq and Thailand.

Expanding this is actually quite easy. With a POD after the outbreak of war, you could hypothetically get quite a few, i'll go through them:

• Spain
  Actually reasonably easy, Hitler promises Franco Gibraltar, Morocco and as much of France as he can grab. He might join just after Italy, yet before the fall of France.
• Turkey
  If Hitler managed to capture most of the Caucasus, Suez or both, Turkey might see little choice to much in with the Axis.
  Opinions vary on this one, but i maintain they might have.
• San Marino
  Simply: Italy pressures them into joining the Axis. This would make little to no difference however.
• Greece
  Metaxas greatly looked up to Mussolini and Franco, if Spain joins the war, there's likely some way to pressure him into joining.
• Argentina
  Truthfully i have no idea how to get them to join, but i've heard it's possible. I'll let someone else field this one.
• Chile
  See Ecuador
• Paraguay
  Paraguay was pro-Axis and seriously considered joining the Axis, i figure if other South American joined, they'd probably feel safe joining too.
• Ecuador
  In 1941, Peru declared war on Ecuador. It's completely possible for Bolivia, Chile and Colombia to back up Ecuador, then for them to join up with the Axis somehow. Ecuador was already close with Germany and Japan, plus Mussolini was a far of these far flung plans, so this can probably work somehow.
• Chile
  See Ecuador
• Columbia
  See Ecuador
• Sweden
  Sweden could back up Finland in the Winter War and then again in the Continuation War
• Lithuania
  Finland could have pressured Hitler into turning Lithuania into a puppet state in the manner of Slovakia when he invaded Russia. It's an extra Axis country in a way
• Afghanistan
  Iran was invaded because they refused to cave to an allied ultimatum, the same ultimatum was issued to Afghanistan. If they refuse, they'll be invaded, thus technically adding them to the Axis.

That's all i can think of. With a pre-war POD, you can get more, it all depends how far back you're willing to go.

PRFU said:

When I saw this thread - https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=233368 it reminded me of a question I had a long time ago, WI Spain and Argentina had joined the Axis (plus any other countries that could feasibly be persuaded) and Germany never broke its pact with the USSR?

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Well, in that case, Hitler and the Nazi Party would never have existed, so the whole war might never have happened.

Hitler's entire belief system was centered around two basic things, Germans WERE superior to all other groups, and the Jews and Slavs were deserving of nothing but extermination.

I think an issue is, and I know I'm parroting people who said this and just stealing if from them, what do any of these nations gain from joining the Axis? Other than a threat to themselves, what would they gain? Argentina and Spain and Chile and so on and so on seem like they'd just be cannon fodder. World powers joining the Axis is what thing, but minor nations joining them is another.

If it were a world without a World War 2, that'd be something else as well, since it'd just be like a Comintern type alliance of Fascists and those who think good relations with Fascists and Militarist states would help them or be in there interest. In a Dieselpunk world, such would be very, very interesting. But it's been said this is for the World War, so I don't see what would benefit these powers to join other than getting attacked.

I think, however, you can strengthen the Axis, and do so just by changing up who is there and what is done.
For example, I think the USSR being in the Axis could be beneficial (should it not lead to Fascist allies withdrawing in disgust from alliance with Germany) since Russia is a world power. If you wish for that to hold, maybe have circumstances make Hitler think breaking off with Russia would not be to his benefit and reconsider invading, or kill Hitler and have him replaced by a pragmatist with a similar thought.
I also think replacing leadership in Italy, and maybe even Japan in Germany, could benefit the Axis. Mussolini did not seem to do well, and seemed to have been more interested in blaming troops than leading a war time state well.
You could also have the war delayed to allow better readiness and strength; Mussolini felt Italy was not prepared, and asked Hitler to hold off starting a war for a few years.
You could also keep some powers at bay. Britain could be kept neutral, or perhaps even somehow made cordial. Russia could as well. And America could be kept out of the war just by having Japan avoid Pearl Harbor, or by having Germany and Italy avoid declaring war, and thus keep the US in the Pacific.

The most powerfull ww2 axis possible...
...must include the USSR, and a fully comitted Vichy France too.
It probably requires that Hitler is more reasonable (or is replaced by someone else) and/or the allies make some mistakes that antagonise those nations and push them in the arms of Germany.

Emperor Norton I said:

I think an issue is, and I know I'm parroting people who said this and just stealing if from them, what do any of these nations gain from joining the Axis? Other than a threat to themselves, what would they gain? Argentina and Spain and Chile and so on and so on seem like they'd just be cannon fodder. World powers joining the Axis is what thing, but minor nations joining them is another.

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Spain against Morocco, Gibraltar, potentially parts of Southern France, and if it tickles Franco's fancy, Andorra.

Argentina gets the Falklands, and as for Chile, they join against Peru, only becoming entangled in the worldwide conflict later, and perhaps against their will. Ecuador simply calls for Axis support in a war they didn't start, Colombia's backing up their neighbour and Bolivia still has a grudge against Peru, and they want their territory back.

Sweden is defending Finland against Soviet aggression. There's no 'gain' as such, but look at Britain and France, they didn't 'gain' anything as such by declaring war on Germany after they invaded Poland, they were defending a friend while stopping a power they didn't like from getting stronger. This would be similar to Sweden's reckoning.

I should also add that the UK was planning on invading Norway but Germany beat them to it. Perhaps if they do it sooner and/or Germany does it later, you have Norway in the Axis.

MattII said:

Except that the BEF was far from the whole of the British army, and both sides knew that invading would mean destroying the RAF and RN, which would be a real struggle for Germany. Oh, and you're not going to get that many more losses for the evacuation fleet, the Germans were already going at them tooth-and-nail, but they just didn't have the tools to do much.

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Militarily the losses might not have been enough to put Britain out of the the war but politically it might have tipped the balance against Churchill, the British government had it's share of those who wanted to make a deal. A failure at Dunkirk might have done enough damage to public morale that the appeasers could outst Churchill and have their way. Of course if Halifax had become Prime Minister instead a deal is probably the likely option.

Have Turkey with an efficient militarist government join theaxis summer 1942?

Here's my list, predicated on no major ASB-like developments in the overall course of the war. Obviosuly, if somehow the war started to look like the Axis would win, you'd have all sorts of minor states jumping on the bandwagon, just as what happened in OTL with the allies:

Actual or defacto members of the Axis or Axis allies at one time or another:
Germany
Italy
Hungary
Romania
Slovakia
Croatia
Bulgaria
Finland
Yugoslavia (short term)
Japan
Manchukuo
Thailand (briefly)
Iraq (briefly)

Potential other members, ranked in order of potential likelihood and value(remotely possible and high value to highly unlikely and who cares). I exclude any nations that were occupied by an Axis power.

Spain (probably both the most likely and most valuable)
Vichy France (certainly the most valuable but less likely than Spain)

Beneath the above two its a stretch

Turkey (not really very likely but would be valuable)
Argentina (probably the most likely in the Americas, but highly improbable)

I thinks its really a stretch to add any other South American nation, and would not consider either Iran or Afghanistan as potential Axis powers, even if they briefly resisted Soviet and British occupation in the war.

OK, ASB fans, what if the Axis were really winning and we had an axe to grind or wanted a piece of the Postwar pie

Just about any remaining neutral nation in continental Europe
Eire
China (the Nationalist regime might make peace with the Japanese to settle scores with the Reds).
India (as British Empire collapses, they ally with Japan)
Mexico (remember 1848 and 1916/17)
Maybe Paraguay, followed then by bunmches of other South American states had stayed neutral

The Nazis have to go to war with the Soviets at some point. By 1942 the USSR will be in a perfect position for a giant backhand against the Nazis, by 1943 the Soviets will be launching a large-scale offensive Germany will be able to delay only, not stop.